LDN Video Interviews and Presentations

Dr Annette Johnson from Germany - 27th March 2019 (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Linda: Today, my guest is Dr Annette Johnson from Germany. Thank you for joining us today. 

Annette Johnson, MD: Thank you for having me. 

Linda: Could you tell us how you got into medicine? Was it something you wanted to do as a child? 

Annette Johnson, MD: As a child, I wanted to go to Africa to help children that are not in a wonderful position as we are here in Europe, in Western countries. In the beginning, I thought it's only in Africa where they have problems and we don't really have problems in Europe, only luxury problems. Then I found out that's not true. We have lots of problems in Western countries, such as chronic diseases and the suffering that nobody cares about anymore because we tell our patients they are not curable at all. I wanted to help and change things.

Linda: When did you hear about LDN? 

Annette Johnson, MD: Actually I was so much into fibromyalgia and other patients that I was searching all over the world to find solutions for my patients. I am caring for about 700 fibromyalgia and around 600 Borrelioses patients and around 500 Hashimoto patients. 

I was very happy to hear about your radio show and your book. To start with, some other doctors in the area are pain specialists and who were experienced in this therapy.  

Linda: How long ago was that? 

Annette Johnson, MD: I think this is three years going by now but already I would say I can see success after some weeks, sometimes after the first week also. I also found a good psychological effect on the mood of my patients. So I'm really very positive about using this on patients who are so chronic. Sometimes I find them to improve very fast.

Linda: All right. You said that you have 700 patients with fibromyalgia. How many of those have you now got on LDN? 

Annette Johnson, MD: I don't want to disappoint anyone but I would say around 50 patients on LDN. Some patients do well only with diet changes with meditation techniques, plus therapy and private practical interventions. So I'm sort of doing my worst cases and that is why it's only around 50 from 700 because it's such a good help in the hard cases, in the difficult cases. 

Linda: Okay, so from those 50 patients, what have the outcomes been in the percentage?

Annette Johnson, MD: I did some research before our interview. I think it would be a 90% success. I'm separating my patients to those who best fit the criteria, which may be why my success rate is higher.

Linda: How do you prescribe LDN? Are you using capsules, or sublingual or cream? And how do you titrate the dose up? What is the starting dose? 

Annette Johnson, MD: Yes. I use a compound pharmacy that you recommended in Ireland off into South of Germany, and my first recipe is a 0.5 milligram, one milligram and two-milligram capsule on one recipe.

That means that the patients only have to come to me twice and then can proceed through. After they ask all their questions after they have understood the system, after they have read your book and then we keep in contact every two weeks by telephone or personally and then they increase.

The dosage until the four or 5.5 milligrams, if they use it if they need it, or they can stop if they don't need such high doses. Many of the myalgia patients only need very low doses to get a quick improvement. I have found with speaking to fibromyalgia patients and LDN prescribers that people with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, are very sensitive to all medication and LDN, even though it's a very low dose, is still a prescription drug.

Linda: Do you find you have to start very low and do you find they react to it negatively initially?

Annette Johnson, MD: I think they react very well if we start with 0.5 milligrams and I remember two cases who couldn't even tolerate that. So we made them buy empty capsules and divided into two pieces so they could start with 0.25 milligrams. This worked out very well. In the end, when they started it and then they increased the dosage over four weeks instead of two weeks, they could in the end or come to two around two milligrams. That's really interesting because we have some patients who want to give up, saying the side effects are a problem. Pharmacists and prescribers who say that they can get success with all patients, providing you use a very low dose and increase it very slowly. Some people need a longer gap to let the body get used to that dose before you increase it further.

Linda: Some people never have a higher dose than say, two milligrams. It's really individual to each patient, don't you think? 

Annette Johnson, MD: Yes. 

That's so wonderful, isn't it? We can give them the confirmation that in the end they'll find their individual doses and they can increase it if they just take their time. Also,  I tell about 10% say it didn't work well, then later say it did work and I didn't notice because  I did so many other things.  I didn't notice that I was so well, and this is a new effect and we want to go back on the medication. Isn't that interesting?

Linda:  It is very interesting. When I was really ill and every week I had a new symptom, I knew I had a new symptom. The numbness went from my toes to my ankle, to my hip, to my shoulder, and you noticed every single thing that was going wrong. But when things start to improve, it's certainly a case of, oh, my left side isn't as numb as it was before. The pins and needles aren't this bad, but you don't remember it daily like you do when things go wrong, and I think you probably think I'm okay now and you don't think about it.

Annette Johnson, MD: It’s just something that happens. It's only when you stop, as you say, and all these things come back that you remember. That's why I encourage them to have a little book, where they write down their everyday symptoms in a good way. We don't call this a pain book, but we call these recurrent feelings.

We'll see. Then they can go and read how bad they were years before or months, or even weeks before. Because patients with fibromyalgia and fatigue syndrome are often not very good at remembering things. So it's really necessary to write things down and then to go back and look at how many symptoms have already resolved.

Linda: We do have an LDN app for those people who are English speaking. You can have a journal, but you can also record sleep, mood, diets, supplements, exercise, set alarms, do graphs and charts and printouts. It's amazing, but it's in English. So if you have any members who are English speaking, they might find that as a value and help. It's on our website so they could look into that. 

Annette Johnson, MD: These days, they want to take their health in their own hands and they come with ideas.  I just had a patient who was suffering from fibromyalgia for 30 years. She had to do the suggestions to her doctors, what they could do to help her. This is so wonderful that we now understand pain and psychology effects much better than we used to.

As a doctor, you always need some patients that bring you on the way. You need nice colleagues that support you and give the support that you will manage and they will happen. There will be nothing difficult or illegal behind it and the doctors are very busy.

They don't have the time to look at everything themselves and to find out. If you have a doctor who's willing to listen to the patient, giving them new information, that is the way to educate them, isn't it? The busy doctors, when they don't have to search for it to be given the information is a big help.

This is so wonderful and I'm always asking the patients once they'll be better if it's allowed to then call their old doctors. That's what I do once they are better.

I go and call very nicely. They're all doctors and just tell them in a very collegial way how we managed to bring the patients back. It's the insurances that send me patients because they notice they don't have to pay for them anymore because they're going back to work after months or weeks.

So this is wonderful to see that in Germany. That government insurance ascends patients to my office because they know they'll be helped with LDN or other methods. I'm in close contact to Amin who also did lectures at the conferences for Augsburg for calming labs, and it's around 80% of my fibromyalgia patients who actually are triggered.

Borrelioses is a tick-associated diseases. So astonishing if isn't that bad that we are not finding the Berlioz if we don't use the right tests.

Linda: So would you say the Barrios SIS is Lyme disease itself, or would you just say that's a co-infection.

Annette Johnson, MD: I would say it's, it's triggering to see if you have the genetics that for example, you cannot get rid of, phosphates, which professor Paws and Amanda in Los Angeles found. And then you have a tick infection, then everything will compensate and everything will be bad. And you'll start to get autoimmune. And bad reactions. And that's where the LDN comes in. It doesn't replace the antibiotics or the plants that we use or the therapies that we use but it's keeping us from getting all these other diseases like Hashimoto or like other autoimmune diseases from infections.

And I find it very useful. I've had lots of prognosis patients. The Borrelioses and fibromyalgia are really so common in South  Germany. We have a lot of patients who have Lyme disease who have been told by their medical professionals that it's all in their head.

Linda:  They're just depressed. There's nothing really wrong with them. So that automatically makes them very depressed, not being believed when they can't get out of bed, they can't function. Do you have patients who have chronic Lyme disease that you treat because they are getting fibromyalgia from borreliosis?

Annette Johnson, MD: They're coming with fibromyalgia symptoms. And then I find very high numbers.  Actually, I had very bad Borrelioses last year.

It was 16. Unbelievable. And then I could just help myself with some physical therapies,  some foot photons to appease and some electric therapies. And I took LDN in the end after that, I just wanted to try it on my own. And I found that it was very useful and that I'm not having nightmares or something, but I have very nice dreams. it's really interesting and it's nothing scary about it, but it's wonderful to dream. And also it helps with my Parkinson patients who are not dreaming anymore. It helps with my dementia patients if they're not dreaming anymore because a deep sleep would DRI with dreams is so important to heal your disease.

Annette Johnson, MD: people talk about the vivid dreams with LDN., I feel robbed. I never had any vivid dreams, but I've heard so many people tell me about their dreams. I had vivid dreams, I wasn't scared. It was just interesting. It was like watching a video. It was not scary at all and I never felt that I should stop it or something. I think it's a wonderful thing and I want to take it one and a half years just to find out what it does with my body. I'm so convinced about this therapy I just wanted to take it. Just getting back to the Lyme disease patients, how long it takes to get better.

Linda: How long would you say that would take with using all your different therapies as well as LDN and the earlier they come, the faster they are healed, but already if they have it for a long time, we can help within half a year. Wow. Yeah, it is because it takes so long to initiate all the things and to get your vitamins on the internet and things.

Annette Johnson, MD: If people come from somewhere else very far away, you have patients from Egypt and from Portugal and from Scandinavia. So if, if they come from far away, I have to be very fast and I'm starting all things parallel because I don't care which of the things heals in the end. I just want to hear and. Then I'm faster.

Sure. The more they can do, in parallel, the shorter time they are here.

Linda:  Now, how do people get hold of you? What's your website?  And do you have a waiting list?

Annette Johnson, MD: Sure. https://www.annette-johnson.de/ But this is only three months, I think. Okay. So if anybody would like to come and see you, the sooner they can make that appointment, the better. If you have to wait three months. But if they come in the beginning of the week and they have had their massage already, then we could start, take the early spot LTT um, and know if it's Borrelioses triggered that why they are so fatigued or while they are so painful for, and then it would be just faster.

So we can take blood in the morning about vitamins and Borrelioses if it had their massage in the week before. And then. They don't need to come so often, but maybe three times or so. 

Linda: Well, thank you very much for being our guest today and sharing with us your experience. I appreciate it so much and thank you for your work.

Annette Johnson, MD: Take care. All the best. Thank you.

This show is sponsored by Dixon's Chemist, who are experts in LDN at associated treatments in the UK. Dixon's Chemist is the most cost-effective for LDN in all forms within the UK and Europe, maintaining safety standards far in excess of what is required. Why would you choose to get your LDN from anywhere else? Call 0141404654 five today to speak to LDN experts. 

Doctor Annette Johnson asked me to add, I may not have pointed out enough how important it is to start the titration with a compounded product instead of diluting tablets. Local pharmacies, unfortunately, suggest this in order to avoid the high costs of the raw material.

And the extra effort. Patients nightly believe that diluting a 50-milligram tablet is accurate doses of no 0.5 milligrams, which it isn't. I found incorrect fillers and self dilution. The reason why I initially didn't receive the results I do now, some colleagues are still not aware of this.

Any questions or comments you may have. Please email me at Contact@ldnresearchtrust.org. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciated your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well.

Cory Rice, DO (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Linda Elsegood: Today I'm joined by Dr. Cory Rice, who is a D O.

Thank you for joining me today, Cory. 

Dr Cory Rice: Thank you for having me. 

Linda Elsegood: Now I have been looking at your website and we had the introduction there, and it's a very comprehensive website. In fact, it's one of the best I've seen. It tells the patient absolutely everything. And I do like the fact that you have patient reviews and that's always taking life into your own hands.

Cause some people can just say nasty things when it's not facing to face and they're not happy. But you have some amazing reviews on there. Um, you have one review which says, uh, Dr. Rice, Ashley and Shannon have given me my life back. I feel better than I have in years and maybe ever. And thank you from the bottom of my heart, Dr.Rice, for your compassion and commitment to quality. And to me, reviews like that are just amazing, aren't they? 

Dr Cory Rice: They are. They are. And we're very fortunate to have a great patient base that's really committed to themselves and you know, joined with us to partner with them on, on their journey to health.

Linda Elsegood: You specialize in functional and lifestyle medicine. Now we know traditionally many doctors treat the symptoms. So whatever symptom you have, and you go to the doctors and it's a case of, okay, let's give you something to combat insomnia or, uh, spasms or whatever it may be. Rather than looking at, let's see. Find out why you're having these symptoms. Now, this is what functional medicine is all about, isn't it? 

Cory Rice: It is. It is. And I think it's an important thing to know as, as the listener of this, um, to just give me a minute to explain kind of how I got here. I think we all have our story and I think it's important, certainly when I'm doing talks to physicians and to patients, uh, and just to groups so that they know who's speaking to them.

 And so yes, you can find out on our website, uh, some information, but just. Just hearing it straight from me, um, I think is important as well. So if you'll indulge me for one minute, um, you said I was a DO and I absolutely am a DO. I went to, uh, an MD allopathic residency and, and, uh, I joke, but I'm serious.

When I say I sort of had some of my humanity washed down with me, um, over the course of, of those three to four years, um, I finished my, my, my chief resident year in internal medicine and really came out with a prescription pad blazing and, and could tackle any disease with any drug. And. Felt like I knew what I was doing at the exact same time, I was staring in the mirror every day at a patient.

So I myself was a patient. I was on six prescription pills. I was not healthy. And I, um, ultimately, uh, needed to change my direction. And so personally, I did some advanced testing, uh, both from a cardiovascular standpoint, genetic standpoint, and started learning other things about health and disease that I hadn't learned in formal training.

And, and Oh, ultimately. Uh, I was able to, you know, reverse a lot of my issues from a cardiovascular standpoint, an insulin perspective, uh, certainly my waistline and, and all of these risk factors. And, you know, um, one by one I was able to come off of medication and I've been off medication for probably seven, eight years now.

And. Um, that particular journey that I took for took me about six months to go through everything I did from diet, lifestyle, and just changing the way I looked at things. Um, I really brought that back to our practice, um, at that time and tried to apply what I learned myself to patient care and that led me to functional medicine.

Um, and really the idea of going after the root cause of, of disease and, and when you learn as a physician, that sounds very, um, crazy to say that, but when you learn as a physician that patients are not deficient and statin therapy or antidepressant therapy, or proton pump inhibitors or stomach medicines, right?

And they're actually deficient and other things, and, and including, right. Nutrient-dense food and supplements and hormones and thyroid and all the things that I do now, um, it becomes very, very clear that. You know, a lot of our disease is completely reversible and curable if you take these little steps and these little layers to, to create, you know, effective, sustainable change in these patients.

And that's exactly what I did. And so we converted our practice over time from a traditional insurance practice and to now two practices that focus solely on lifestyle, hormone management, as well as functional medicine. Um, which has been just an enormous, uh, a blessing. For me personally, and then now our team of providers.

Linda Elsegood: So when a patient comes to you with a multitude of, um, different symptoms saying, you know, I don't feel well, I'm very tired, I'm not sleeping properly, et cetera, et cetera. Where do you start? How do you, um, what's the starting point with a typical patient who doesn't really know what's wrong with them.

Dr Cory Rice: Okay, sure. Great question. So would, the most important thing to me, or any provider that works with me at our practice is what's important to the patient. So the high-level testing we do both from a CRM perspective or a gut analysis perspective or saliva perspective, the data is really there to confirm our clinical hypothesis based upon our interview with the patient.

Right. So literally every single person I ever sit down with, I asked them, what is important to you. Because I don't have a clinical agenda, though I'm going to get all this data. I don't care about the data if it's not what's important to you and what your health goals are. And so when they sit down with me and they tell me my goals are to be around for my grandkids, my goals are to be more engaged in my life.

My goals are to not take medication. Like, you know, I like to hear that because that's the framework around everything that we do moving forward. Because if I just focus on advanced testing and you know, looking at stool analysis and get lost in the minutia of the clinical data, you lose the patient.

And so as long as I and our team of providers keep their eyes on what the patient wants, and we marry that with the diagnostics we do, then it went, we went every single time. And so, to answer your question more directly, when they come in, we ask them what their goals are. We go through their entire history.

From early to old. And then we find out, you know, what, what have they dealt with and where are they now? And ultimately there's, everyone comes in on a different health continuum and a different level of disease or not disease. A lot of people are healthy that come here. A lot of people are sick that come here.

And so we like to joke that for a lot of patients, we're a resort practice because we're the last resort. And so depending on what it is they're wanting, we'll decide on the diagnostics we do. And the rubber meets the road, at least at our clinic or network of clinics when they come in for their second, what I call their second date with us because we have all the clinical data, we have their goals, and now we're ready to put action steps in place.

And so depending on where they are and what they want, um, they'll have a myriad of options. But I can tell you there's not one patient who has left our practice that hasn't felt better, and that's on less medicine or sometimes no medicine. And so depending on where we are, um, we see every autoimmune disease you can possibly imagine.

Um, we certainly see cardiometabolic disease, which is what every physician sees in outpatient medicine. Um, and so depending on where they are, um, that all starts with their goals. And then we align the diagnostics with those and we move forward.

Linda Elsegood: just a question that has suddenly occurred to me when we are born, are we more prone to get, um, conditions that our ancestors had. I mean, is it laid out for us right from word go? Some of the things that might trip us up later in life, or does everybody have a clean slate and circumstances? Um.

Dr Cory Rice: Throughout your life map where you're going to go. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I do. Also a very good question. So ultimately the answer to your question is yes, we all are given a unique set of genetics and, and what I would call, you know, when I look at this, I conceptually, I look at every person internally sort of having this, I'll just use that for lack of a better word.

Since I don't have a better illustration, a gun, and if you put in that gun, certain genetic predisposition or genetic markers, let's use, for example, if you're positive for something called APO lipoproteins II or MTHFR or all of these sort of genetic sort of polymorphisms that we test, then absolutely that gun becomes more loaded. However, what pulls the trigger of that gun to create havoc is the environment and your choices throughout your life. And so yes, your gun may be more loaded, more destructive than someone else's gun. However. The trigger that's pulled is your choices every single day with your fork and knife, with your stress, with the people that surround you with how you sleep, how you sweat. All of those modifiable, controllable parameters are the things that lead to whether that trigger is pulled or not. So I do believe that we all have this sort of. Preset risk pattern, but we can absolutely mitigate that 100000% because I'm a living, breathing example of that.

I have horrible, horrible genetics, um, and, and cardiovascular disease all throughout my family, and I can modify those risk factors, um, aggressively through my choices every day. 

Linda Elsegood: Oh, that sounds like my question. That was exactly what I was asking, but it's amazing, isn't it? If we were aware. When we were younger of the pitfalls that may happen later in life and take action before it happens.

Dr. Cory Rice: It is so much better than trying to rectify it once that trigger is already been pulled. You're so, you're so right. And this is something I discuss every day with patients. The unfortunate reality and physicians, I'm sure I have some like-minded people that may hear this, and certainly, you interview like-minded people like me, but they understand this comment when I make it, you know, oftentimes preventive medicine and the type of medicine we do is not the most sexy of medicines because really, and certainly in the United States or in Western healthcare, you know, when a cardiologist comes in and throws a stent in and saves your life, you know, they're sort of hailed as this hero. Rightfully so. They saved their life. 

But at the end of the day, if you can have a provider that is giving you incremental advice, right? So I'll give you a great example. If I've got an autoimmune patient and I say, you know what? Your immune system, dysfunction, dysfunction, if there's no function to your immune system, how do we repair that function? Well, let's look at your gut. So we do a stool analysis. Let me see.

There's all sorts of dysbiosis or at least disruption in the environment of their gut. And I say, okay, so we're going to fix that. But also your D three right. Your vitamin D three-level is low. Let's fix that. Oh, and you have this condition. Let's say lupus, let's say rheumatoid arthritis. Let's talk about a medication called low dose naltrexone.

Oh wait, let's see. Your hormones are off. Well, when you don't have hormones, we can't lubricate the joints and you're going to hurt all the time. Your thyroid's off. And so when I like to tell people now. We're creating kind of these Oh, pockets of troops, right? So like these foot soldiers where they're trying to fend off this immune on slot that we're seeing every day from bad air, bad food, bad water, bad toxic people.

I mean, you name it, it's out there. And so when you're constantly on the onslaught with these, with these, um, you know. I guess you'd say these, these bad guys, and you're constantly trying to prevent that. We as physicians have several layers or several ways that we can set up our ground forces, so to speak, to prevent, you know that from becoming a full out disease process or in this sort of characterization, I guess, war and we do that, not each, each one of those.

Is very important. And there is this additive cumulative effect that just by doing one of those things, you're not going to see much progress. But by adding them together, that's where you really resolve disease and you prevent cancer and you get rid of autoimmunity and all of those things as you have to incrementally add different levels of protection so that patients don't feel those.

And so, you know, the unfortunate thing is, is we don't have. You know, throughout our life trajectory as humans, you know, on our left shoulder. And our right shoulder. We don't have an angel, and then you know, a devil, I guess on the other. On the other side, we don't have these to show us where we're going in the event.

We don't take this preventive or this functional doctor's advice because we just don't have that. So you have to put your faith as a patient and a consumer and who you're partnering with and just trust that what they're doing is going to effectively do what they're claiming it will. Wouldn't it be amazing to take young adults and give them all the tests when they say 20 and say, okay, this is what could potentially happen if you carry on as you are?

You need to tweak this, this, and this. It would save a fortune and save people feeling so bad. Absolutely. No, it'd be wonderful. And it's the same idea. I mean, I'm a younger physician. I'm not, I'm not seasoned as I would call that. I've been, I've seen a number of patients over the last 10 years, and, and there are certain patterns to certain, uh, medical conditions or disease processes that now it's a, it's a pretty cool thing because I can see the early signs in certain younger patients of things that they're headed for and the more seasoned patients that I've seen, and I can tell them, you know what? I've seen your version 15 years from now, I'm treating your version and room to, I promise you, they have the same set of genetic circumstances.

They have the same set of inflammatory markers. They have the same set of this, this, and this, and I can see where you're headed. So it's your choice to change that trajectory or not. So that's kind of a cool deal nowadays. Well, yes. I mean, I find it really upsetting. I do hear nice stories the same as you had the patient reviews.

Linda Elsegood: You know, LDN has given my life back. You know, I feel I've been given a second chance, all this kind of thing. But I also hear from people who say, I woke up this morning. I prayed I wasn't going to wake up. I feel so ill. and that is just heartbreaking. You know, if we could prevent people from ever feeling that ill, um, that would just be amazing.

But I can't see how. That would ever come about, but it would be a nice dream, wouldn't it? Oh, it certainly would. It's certainly one. I think our population is lacking the will to really want to do a lot, and we hear time and time again, these words, these aren't Dr. Rice's words. These are the patient's words, but they're, they're telling me consistently, I want to feel more engaged in my life. I feel like I'm just going through life, not living my life. Right. And you know, our country has done an okay job, I guess, of keeping people alive longer. However, we're just not feeling good. So when disability that's in at 45 or 50 that life, that lifeline of 30 to 40 years of disability, towards the end of life, it's just, that's just not acceptable.

But if we can slowly, gradually reverse some of these conditions. And give people a better quality of life. I mean, I was absolutely amazed. Um, I became a type two diabetic. I have MS and I'd been given three courses of intravenous steroids and I blew up like a balloon. I was huge. I'd gained a six stone, six times 14 that's how many pounds it’s scary.

I was just huge. I had to send my husband out to buy. Like a dress like a tent, cause none of my clothes by about six inches. So I could go out to buy some clothes cause I didn't know what size I was just any way, I became a type two diabetic, which horrifies me and. My grandmother died of diabetes back in 1968-ish.

When they didn't really know that much about diabetes. She went into a diabetic coma and there was all this sort of diabetes thing in the background, and it's just like, oh, I really don't need this. Both my parents were diabetics too, but I have changed my diet. I lost the weight I put on, not all of it honestly, but I have lost most of it.

And look after myself better than I did, and I'm now classed as a diabetic in remission. So I'm really pleased. So thank you. I was really, I was really pleased with that box. I could, you know, tick, uh, best I can. I mean, it's still shows on prediabetic, but Hey, that's absolutely fine with me. That's better.

It tastes a lot better. Yeah. And I can remember. Uh, when I was 32, I had, um, cervical cancer. I was diagnosed with MS when I was 44. Um, I was diagnosed after my mother had a massive heart attack with hereditary high cholesterol. Um, and then this diabetes and my 15-year-old at that time said, you do realize mum, I could have all of these things as well.

You know, what does life hold for me? And it was. I didn't know about functional medicine, everything at the time, and I was thinking, well, I don't know. You don't say that, but it's like, Oh, really? I hadn't thought. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I did want to try and stop taking my statin and it just kept going so ridiculously high.

I was. The risk of having a heart attack or a stroke. It was that high the consultat I saw. she said to me that if I lived on a lettuce leaf and a glass of water, and if that's all I ate, I would still have high cholesterol. So I've got to take the pills.

She said it's hereditary, you know, and I got it from my mother and my grandfather had it apparently. Um, so I've had to accept, because. I don't like taking medicine either. I would rather do it naturally, but I think sometimes you just have to. Yeah, there is some medication, certainly without medication.

Dr Cory Rice: And I don't want the listener to think I'm anti-medicine--without certain medicines, we wouldn't be alive today, but I don't think it's a far stretch for me to tell anyone really that, um, certainly our world and certainly in the United States, um, we are run on pharmaceuticals and, um, there's just, there's just too much of that going on.

And, and. So there's a huge need that needs to be fulfilled, to help people get off of these. You know, that therapy is one of those, um, that is pretty controversial anywhere you look really, um, you know, everybody's got an opinion. And so my, my particular opinion, because I speak on statins and advanced lipids and all of that, um, uh, you know, I'm not a large proponent or advocate of females being on statins, I think if, if you are on a statin as a woman, um, I still only want it, it's really more for inflammation protection, but it's, I'll put them on there intermittently, so like three days a week, and then obviously give them high dose CoQ10. And there was a cardiologist that I learned a lot from as far as primary prevention of heart disease, and he was the one that told me, you know, anytime you've got a woman and she's on a statin, make her take it Monday, Wednesday, Friday cause she gets the same benefit as daily. And he said, you know, no drug company will design a study to show that you need to take their medicine less. It's always going to be to take it daily and more so. But he said, based upon all of his years of treating heart disease, he says, no, no change.

And someone who takes it every other day versus daily. Um. There was a wonderful, wonderful, integrative, uh, uh, interventional cardiologist. Uh, Mimi Guarneri, um, very well known. Uh, she's the president of the American Board of Holistic Medicine, and, and as I said, she's a conventional interventional cardiologist and there's a lot of good videos on her, uh, discussing statin therapy and ladies.

And, uh, really there is, there is no, um, study or clinical design that's ever been done, that's shown statins help to do anything, to primarily prevent heart disease, strokes or anything in a female. Um, I get the idea of doing it for an anti-inflammatory, but you just have to be very careful of what it's doing to the mitochondria long-term.

And so, you know, that's just my anecdote and, and, and kind of my opinion. But, um, and I manage a lot of these similar things, but, but you know. I would just proceed with caution. I think as a woman, I've been taking it for 18 years, so maybe I will try taking it Monday, Wednesday, Friday. That would be good.

Linda Elsegood: Also, I used to take uh, an antacid cause I have acid reflux, but I managed to cut that out as well with changing my diet. I don't get an acid stomach and it's because of the gluten. If I have something if I go into a restaurant and I say whatever dish it is, could you check that there is no gluten in there? And they'll say, come back and say yes. The chef said there's no gluten. Once I get to bed and I get the pains in my stomach and the burning in the back of my throat. And I know that there was gluten in it. Cause that's the only reason. Yes, exactly. So that's annoying when that happens. But if I do manage to cut gluten out completely, the acid problem is gone.

It's been a challenge. It is, isn't it? And it's listening to your body. And that is difficult. I mean, I've stopped taking the Metformin for diabetes. I've stopped taking this antacid tablet. I take LDN and the statin, which I'm now going to try taking three times a week, but I'm not taking anything else. And I don't ever take painkillers.

Uh, when I was in a lot of pain, it was a trade-off. I could either take the pain medication, which then created such bad nausea that it just felt I was going to vomit just by lifting my head up, turning my head. But sometimes it was a case of I can't stand the pain. I'll take the tablets. And then after taking the tablets, I wished I hadn't because the nausea was so bad.

So I just, I just gave up with tablets, but that was before LDN and touch wood. I don't have those pains. Any more. So that's really good. Yeah. So what would you say, um, I know everybody's different and you can't put everybody in the same pigeonhole, but your patients that take LDN, do they still take, you know, a vast array of medications, or have they managed to decrease the number?

Dr Cory Rice: Yeah. So, um, I can't say there's a, there's a pattern there across the board. I, I'd say more so than not, they're on, they're certainly on less medication. Um, LDN has been just a fabulous, uh, introduction to, to what we do and, and I just can't say it enough. Um, our best cases of complete remission. Whether that's multiple sclerosis, as you said, whether that's colitis of, of any variety, um, certain skin conditions or Hashimoto's, I mean, all of it, um, complete remission of those conditions across the board happens when the patient is yes, taking LDN.

However, when they're, when they're. Looking at the different other segments of their life and quite frankly, their immune function. Um, and, and, you know, committing themselves to a healthier way in a healthier decision process. Those are the ones that do very, very well. And so, um, if I've got someone who comes in with whatever, cardiometabolic disease depressed. On an antacid or proton pump inhibitor, and you know, we end up making some lifestyle decisions and showing them their genetics and immune function and dah, dah, dah, and they end up no longer having those issues. Certainly, they come off the medications associated with that issue, but oftentimes, if you can just heal someone's gut you know, you can, you can help kind of their whole situation. 

And so, you know, I treat a lot of thyroid disease, lots of thyroid disease. That's a big one for me. Um, it's a personal professional passion because it's just so mismanaged and misunderstood in this country and in the world, I think. And so, um, the thyroid is, is the perfect example that, that gland, uh, you know, controls so many different functions in the body.

And if you're not optimizing it. Not optimizing the levels of thyroid in the body. Uh, then you, then you really are missing the boat on several things. And there's, there are very clearly defined reasons now why our thyroid gets dysfunctional. And, uh, it just, it just, you know, from a diagnostics perspective and a treatment perspective, 95% of formal physicians on the planet are just not.

They're kind of going with what I used to do, which is through what I was taught in training. And they're not really looking at how it functions, but when you repair immune function, um, you know, the LDN is wonderful at helping clear out some of those antibodies so that their thyroid functions better.

And so I don't think I ever take anyone off LDN. Um, I kind of make my exception with low dose naltrexone because I tell patients every day, you're not deficient in this. You're not deficient in that. You're not deficient in statins. You're not deficient in, you know, Metformin. You're not deficient in this.

So let's fix those. Let's show you what you are deficient in. But it also goes against my mantra. You know, I do want you to think about taking this medication because we just live in a very toxic planet, and it's giving you a little more protection to deal with the onslaught of those toxins. But you're not deficient in LDN.

So that's kind of my whole thing with that. Our food isn't the quality it used to be years ago either. Is it? Hmm. No, it isn't. Our soil isn't certainly our water. Our people aren't. I mean, I feel like you can talk about anything and there are just toxins every single place. Right? So you combine that with the inability to detox through the liver, and you have genetic predispositions for that, and it's just a, it's just a perfect storm to develop an autoimmune disease.

Or. You know, or cardiovascular disease or cancer. I mean, you name it, it's just a, it's, it's a war out there. And physicians, I feel like as a, as a physician, and we just have to be smarter than what we learned in formal training, we have to, you know, there's just more to it than that.

Linda Elsegood: What kinds of diet would you say is a healthy diet? What should we be looking to eliminate? Yeah. So broad question. Um, so yeah, diet, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll use the term menu plan. So what type of way of life or menu? 

Dr Cory Rice: Um, the diet has such a negative connotation to it. Um, unfortunately, because the Torborg diet was not meant to be a negative thing.

However, um, from a menu perspective, it really depends on you as a patient, right? So I don't think there's any one size that fits everyone. Um, there is a rage now among some of our patients that get fantastic results from eating ketogenic and living that life. Um, there are patients that can't tolerate chemo.

There are patients that are strictly paleo. There are patients that are pescatarian, vegetarian, vegan, you name it. And so I am here. There is no one size fits all. I mean, I know how I eat and what I do, but that's. Based upon my genetics and what's worked for me to fix some of my biomarkers and just helped me get off medicines and feel great, but what works for me doesn't always work for everyone else.

And so the best way to answer that question is for patients to have a concrete idea of what their biomarkers look like and their genetics look like. What does your risk pattern look like? I want to know all of it. From the genetics to, you know, what is your blood type, right. What, what, what, because I've seen patterns among different populations of patients on how they can eat and what they tolerate and what they don't.

For example, I try Keto. I don't do well with Keto at all, but Keto has been a wonderful, uh, addition for some patients, certain particularly women that have, that can't lose weight and doing anything. Um, they go on to the ketogenic, pure ketogenic diet, and they're in there. Measuring their ketones and such, and they are finally losing fat.

And I think it's breaking that leptin resistance cycle they have. But, um, you know, there's just no perfect answer for our diabetics or cardiometabolic disease. I'm still very, very hardcore about the Mediterranean food plan. So eating a Mediterranean diet modified down to reduce the gluten and dairy content, um, is still highly, highly successful and studied and published on reversing and cardiometabolic disease and diabetes specifically.

Um, so it really does depend on that risk pattern. If you have an autoimmune patient right. There's an autoimmune protocol that we follow. Um, that works very nicely. And that's just removing all the inflammatory foods and just increasing the nutrient density of what you're eating. And it's really not that complicated.

Um, I think from the provider perspective, because it's very much similar to some of these other things we do, but if you've got someone with gut dysfunction and intestinal candidiasis or small intestinal bowel overgrowth, I mean, we've got different. You know, ways of eating to kind of fix those conditions.

Um, so it truly is individualized. That's just, that's just, I think that's just good medicine to look at it that way.  

Linda Elsegood: Okay. So for patients out there who are listening, you’re in Texas, you have two, um, offices. Could you tell people how they could contact you? Where do they have to go? 

Dr Cory Rice: Absolutely. Um, so the first thing is if you want to hear more about what we're about, go to our website. It's www.mymodernmedicine.com. Uh, there are two locations, one in the centre of Dallas, uh, and Addison. And on our website, there's a phone number and address for that. And then we've got another location about 20 to 25 miles East of that location. Um. That they can also sort of search for and find. Um, I'll also be starting, I hope soon to be publishing more podcasts, YouTube stuff because I've had a lot of requests for that.

I've just got a lot of information I'd like to disseminate to my patient base and just the people that want to follow, whether they're patients or not. And so I'm hopeful that I can get that going as soon as well. But there's enough, I think, content on the web that they should be able to at least locate us and find out more about us.

Linda Elsegood: And what about waiting lists? How long would a patient have to wait to see you or one of your partners?

Dr Cory Rice: You know, um, it's not as bad as, as I think some other clinics. And so, you know. Right. You know, and this is, I think why that is our whole model. This sounds kinda crazy, but our whole model is predicated on getting you well.

Um, the disease model in, in America certainly is not predicated on wellness. It's predicated on keeping you to pay in and buy into it. And so the only way a doctor like me thrives and our business thrives and we're able to grow other clinics is to get new. An influx of patients and well, how do we do that?

You just build that through word of mouth. Like we literally have not spent $1 in marketing ever since I've found this. And it's all word of mouth. That's how we've been able to build another office. And so, um, the waitlist with that sort of foundation said isn't bad. I mean, it's probably, I don't know, four weeks or so may be to get in to see me as a new patient and then one of our providers can maybe see you a little sooner, but it's not, it's not too terrible. Um, there's a lot that goes into the first two visits. Like anything else in the functional medicine world, you just have a lot of, it's just an overwhelming experience, I think. Um, but there's a lot that you learn. Um, and you're, you're ready. I think you're, you're empowered with knowledge once you leave after that second visit.

So, um, the wait, I wouldn't let that be a bother, but I think I would, you know, whoever the, whoever may be listening to this, if they're even remotely close to where we are, they could call one of the offices and get a pretty good idea, but it's not bad. And what about telephone consultations? Would you do that?

Do set the tone. Okay. I do. That's been something new for the last new as in the last one to two years. This whole idea, because patients move, um, people learn about you. Um, I speak for a number of organizations and it's just by doing this, you travel all over and you meet all sorts of people and they want you to help them.

And so, um. They don't have to be, you know, right down the street from you. And so, yes, I absolutely do that. Um, and we do have means at times to set up like mobile phlebotomy work so that you can, we can actually, through our vendors who'd get our lab testing, can go and meet you at your work or home to draw the lab.

So there's no like, additional cost there. Um, and so there are ways of. Doing that. Um, I'm no longer an insurance physician. I used to be, but I'm no longer now. Um, and there's a lot of political reasons as to why that it just wasn't a sustainable model. And I'm sure people probably understand that the insurance system is not built on getting you well, it's on getting your money.

So, um, they just did not want to compensate or pay for someone like me. They didn't want me out there conquering all this disease. But. Hold on. I'm sorry. But as you said at the beginning, it's a partnership, isn't it, between the patient and the doctor, and it's that trust, isn't it? You know, if you really gel with that doctor, you would wait the four weeks willingly, you know.

Who wants to be part of a dictatorship. Right? I mean, it just doesn't, especially when you're dealing with a vulnerable set of circumstances as far as disease and health care. So, well, we've come to the end of the show and thank you so much for being with us today. I love being here. This was awesome. So I'm available anytime you need me.

Linda Elsegood: This was great. Thank you.

Dr Cory Rice and his team of providers treat all forms of autoimmune disease, thyroid hormone issues, diabetes, cardiometabolic syndrome, and cancers with LDN. He is a practising internist whose practice emphasis is on functional and lifestyle medicine. Visit www.mymodernmedicine.com.

Any questions or comments you may have, please email me at Contact@ldnresearchtrust.org. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well. 

 

Dr Baldeep Bains MD - 23rd Jan 2019 (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Linda Elsegood: Today, my guest is Dr Bains, and he is the younger brother of Dr Harpal Bains, who you may have remembered we had on the show a few months ago now. Thank you for joining us, Dr Bains. First of all, can you tell us your background and about you and all the wonderful things that you've done to date. 

Dr Baldeep Bains: I grew up in Malaysia as my sister did, but then I was educated in the UK. I then went to university in Scotland and went to med school in Scotland. While I was in medical school, I had this mad idea that I wanted to join the military and before I knew it I’d signed on the dotted line and probably half of my life to the military. Upon finishing university, I'd spent a bit of time in Virginia. I joined the Navy, the general Navy. Upon finishing the officer's training, I spent about three years getting deployed in nice places, some not very nice places. As a Navy doctor, I’d look after old Marine commanders.

For the first five years after graduation, I spent most of my time doing the two operations. Upon completing them, we have to decide what you're going to do. I initially thought of a surgeon. I started off training to be an orthopaedic surgeon. I spent about four years doing orthopaedic surgery. I enjoyed it up to a certain extent. Then I realized that I was reaching a point where I wasn't passionate about surgery. I think I was passionate about something a bit more so I decided to quit surgery and joined general practice. I did my GP training and I qualified as a GP in 2009. 

My wife got pregnant in 2014 and when I was deployed for six months and I got back just in time before she gave birth. I think reality struck me that I can't continue with military life, I was having a family.

So I left the military in 2015 and then worked as a GP for a short while before my sister suggested that I should join her practice which is where I am now. So I've been at my sister's coming close to a year and a half now and working alongside her is where I heard about LDN. 

I've got to say it was quite a paradigm shift for me because when she first spoke to me about what she was going to do, I thought she was absolutely bonkers. I'm not going to lie to you all. We use nice guidelines and when she was talking to me about functional medicine... we had many arguments about how she was practising medicine and I was like, what are you doing? Are you crazy? Are you mad? Are you dead? I've got to say that we didn't see eye to eye initially with what she's doing. I think fortunately she persevered and she agreed. Even if I could see the way she does things and the way functional medicine works. I’m by no means trying to criticize the general practice. She’s done a fantastic job and I actually appreciate what my colleagues do but there's a certain extent to which we can actually help them and they're quite stuck with the reason I didn't blame them because they are guided by guidelines. A lot of the people who sit in the committees of guidelines are people who've got some vested interests elsewhere. I'm not gonna mention names, but I can understand the restrictions they have and why they can't. 

Yeah. It's quite hard for them to go explore other avenues. That's another way of doing things. I'm really glad I can introduce it as well because had I not been introduced, I think I would have been missing out on a lot, I love my patients. So I'm actually finding it harder and harder to be a GP now because of what I do know.

Linda Elsegood: What would you say are the main conditions that you are treating in the clinic?

Dr Baldeep Bains: I see the lion's share of the male patients. A lot of the male patients that we come across do come in with quite prominent symptoms of testosterone deficiency. That's one of the things, but I'm seeing a lot of patients with some degree of autoimmunity as well. I've seen patients with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, chronic fatigue, Crohn's disease, bowel issues, etc. Increasingly I'm seeing more patients with autoimmune and bowel type issues. 

Linda Elsegood: When a patient first comes in to see you, how long is the initial consultation? Do you do lots of form-filling, questionnaire-answering with all of them? What's the procedure?

Dr Baldeep Bains: Most of the patients, we're looking to get one of their main symptoms, what their diet’s like, how their condition is affecting their activities of daily living. We can be asking quite a lot of questions. We spend anywhere between 1-2 hours with the patients. We try to read the evidence in order to find the root cause. Again, we will see a patient and we will treat the symptoms and the majority of the time that's what we do. But they keep pulling back the same issues again and again. If you don't look into food it takes time to look into a root cause, you can't just expect to spend five minutes with a patient talking about their history and find the root cause. You need to go into a lot more detail, which is what we try to aspire to do; just get into the nitty-gritty and hope to find what might be the root cause for a lot of these symptoms. 

Linda Elsegood: What other testing do you use? 

Dr Baldeep Bains: The majority of the time we will carry out a comprehensive blood panel. It’s one of the baseline things we do. So in a certain comprehensive blood panel, it would include the likes of a full blood count. You carry out a comprehensive biochemistry analysis looking into things like your liver function, kidney function. In our practice we do quite an in-depth hormonal evaluation, looking into quite a few different hormone levels and trying to see if anything that needs to be addressed. Beyond that, if a person does have a lot of bowel type symptoms, we will potentially do something along the lines of a comprehensive, thorough analysis, which is not a simple as microscopy. It gives you a lot more information. We would offer that if your bowel symptoms are quite prominent. I think we might do as well if something known as SIBO testing, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, complaints of quite significant gut symptoms. We'll do something along those lines. We do allergy testing as well, and we use Cyrex. Personally, I feel it's one of the best kits out. I think it has been extremely comprehensive and they will probably them give us an overview as to what is going on, to keep eating the same foods and which is stimulating an inflammatory response. I think that that's the first few stages. Plus, I would normally offer a test when I first see a patient.

Linda Elsegood: When you ask patients about diet, are they honest with you as to what they eat or drink or do they tell you what they think you would like to hear?

Dr Baldeep Bains: That's a tricky one. I like to think my patients are honest with me. I think the majority of the patients we have are quite honest because by the time they come to see us, they're quite desperate. They've tried everything. I think they like to be as open and honest as they can with me. I think they are honest because of how they're feeling and their determination to get better.

Linda Elsegood: I was only asking because my mother lived with us for a few years. Unfortunately she, she got cancer and died. Before that, we would go and see the doctor and the doctor would say, “have you taken salt out of your diet?” I used to hide the salt because she was at the age where she used to use lots of lots of salt. I would sit there and I'd say, “you put so much salt on it, mom. It looks like snow, doesn't it?” And butter. “Have you cut down on the butter?”, “Oh yes. I don't use it as much.” “Mom, you use as much butter. It looks like cheese because it's so thick” but she didn't want to upset them. She wanted to please the doctor by letting them think she had done what she was told, but she didn't use, to tell the truth. I now have to hope that when I get older, my daughter doesn't come with me,

If we just continue treating symptoms and not the root cause, that root cause could be creating a lot of damage. It's vital to find out what that is. That is what's so good with functional medicine.

Dr Baldeep Bains: I completely agree with her. I think we actually have the luxury of time, which is what a GP doesn't have. I've got 10 minutes per patient, and in that time I've got to get a history from the patient, I’ve got to sort dates, I've got to get ready for my next patient. It’s especially complex with complex patients and complex patients are increasing in numbers. I've seen more and more patients with more and more complex problems coming in. I don't think treating symptoms is the answer to that. 

Linda Elsegood: You're seeing more and more people who have chronic conditions. What would you say is the difference between now and 40 years ago? Is it because we're eating different, or due to the fact that food is treated differently? When I was a child, everything was cooked from scratch. There were no additives. I hardly know how to pronounce some of them, let alone know what they are. What do you think is the cause? 

Dr Baldeep Bains: Reverse back 40-50 years ago, you're not seeing the problems that we had in those days. Compared to the number of solid issues we have nowadays it is just phenomenal. I've got no doubt it's to do with our diet. It's all about the fast food, and then you can get your hands on processed food, anything that's microwaveable, low phosphate and nothing else. No one has time to do things, you want everything in an instant. The busy lifestyle, the stress... life is a lot more stressful now because we've got a lot more demands and you've got everything in your face due to social media. I think stress has got a much more significant influence and the fact that we are actually doing less as well. Spending huge amounts of time in front of computer screens and TVs. Get yourself out, playing, get some sunlight, get exposed to sunlight. I can say my childhood is very different from the childhood experience now. 

Linda Elsegood: You were talking before we started and I'm sure you're quite an outdoorsy person, but what is your diet like? I mean, are you gluten-free, dairy-free? Are you a vegan? What is your diet? 

Dr Baldeep Bains: I am none of those, but I am quite careful about what I eat. I limit the amount of processed food I have. My kids have significantly reduced their intake of sugar. I use just for taste, such as half a spoon in my tea or in my coffee. I don't have any fizzy drinks. I drink water or milk. I'm quite fortunate in the sense that I don't really have many intolerances so I can actually cope with gluten. I've got a very narrow relationship to gluten. If I'm going to define myself, I've significantly reduced them on process over refined carbs. If I do have carbs, it traditionally would be half a plate or a quarter. I do love exercise and I need energy. So I still have carbs. Probably half my plate is protein. But I'm currently 43 and I feel fantastic. I train hard and I can sustain my mind. A craving I've got no real issues. I don’t have any fatigue issues, I'm not obese. I’d like to say that I'm in quite a decent shape, I think it's working for me. I don't eat junk. I've read a lot about intermittent fasting and I probably do that about two or three times a week. I try to fast for 16 hours and then tried to eat in the daylight hours which has been shown to be quite effective. I suppose if you say any dietary routine, but that's been quite recent, probably 2-3 weeks ago. I don't find it too hard to do.

Linda Elsegood: We’ve nearly run out of time, but very briefly, for parents who want to make sure that their children grow up as healthy as possible, what would you recommend to do diet-wise with children? Because it's very difficult with all the crisps and sweets and biscuits and advertising on television, how do you go about trying to establish healthy habits?

Dr Baldeep Bains:I think you get a vibe from them whilst they’re a baby. You've got to introduce them to good food and fruit and vegetables. We try to make everything from scratch, making home-cooked fruit. 

Linda Elsegood: You don't buy Robinsons or anything along those lines?

Dr Baldeep Bains: Nothing whatsoever. They drink water. That's the only thing they seem to pick. Once in a while, my daughter has fresh fruit juice, but apart from that, it's water and milk. That's all they have. I think trying to develop habits from the start and you're trying to give them a good breakfast. I try to avoid sugary cereals. I think even a traditional English breakfast as well, they'll have sausage, which I do try to get good quality sausage just for kids. Try to make a lot more home meals and try to get them less processed food. It's not easy on junior kids, even seven done. Life's extremely busy at that time. Everyone's quite time poor. It doesn't take a lot to make a decent kitchen. We know what we need to be doing and we should practice it. 

Linda Elsegood: We've come to the end very quickly. If patients would like to come and see you, how do they get in touch with you?

Dr Baldeep Bains: They can visit our website, www.harpalclinic.co.uk We have two practitioners there: my sister and I. I have a lot of patients with her too. You get the benefits of two practitioners and hopefully, when you come and see me, you can appreciate the frustrations and a lot of patients as well. I can understand what's going on and I can sense the limitations that they face and be able to give them a bit more of a balanced view. I think one thing we pride ourselves on is ongoing support. Most of my patients have an open email conversation. They can email me anytime and I will get back to them and I would advise them. I think on a lot of occasions patients find that quite reassuring. At the end of the day, I do things which are not very conventional. They didn't think their potentially own GP should be asking them, why are you doing such a thing? A good example is I prescribed LDN to one of my patients and I had a bit of a nasty email from a Polish GP asking me, what am I doing now? I think once the people are educated, once the GPs are educated, then you can get a GP alongside the patient and the GPs can work together with a patient and ultimately what we're doing, what we're looking for is to make the patient feel better. That's the aim. 

Linda Elsegood: That's fantastic. We'll have to have you back another day and thank you very much, Dr Baldeep for being our guest today. 

Dr Baldeep Bains: Thank you, Linda.

This show is sponsored by Dixon Chemist, who are experts in LDN at associated treatments in the UK. Dixon Chemist is the most cost-effective for LDN in all forms within the UK and Europe, maintaining safety standards far in excess of what is required. Why would you choose to get your LDN from anywhere else? Call 01414046545 today to speak to LDN experts. 

Any questions or comments you may have. Please email me at contact@ldnresearchtrust.org. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciated your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well.

Dr Elliot Udell, DPM - 2nd Jan 2019 (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Elliot Udell, DPM shares his Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN) experience on the LDN Radio Show with Linda Elsegood.

Dr Elliot Udell has 30 years experience as a Podiatrist but learned about LDN (Low Dose Naltrexone) only a few years ago. He has developed a keen interest in pain control, and is amazed at how effective LDN is for pain. 

In this interview Dr Udell describes the various foot problems and how he treats each of them with Low Dose Naltrexone.

This is a summary of Dr Elliot Udell’s interview. Please listen to the rest of Dr Udell’s story by clicking on the video above.

Dr David J Zeiger, 26th Dec 2018 (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Linda Elsegood: Today, my guest is Dr David Zeiger, who is a D.O. in Integrative Medicine and a practitioner from Chicago, Illinois. He treats both chronic and acute illnesses as well as neuromuscular pain. Thank you for joining us today, David. 

Dr David Zeiger: Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to talking to you. 

Linda Elsegood: First of all, could you tell us about you? Who is David Zeiger?

Dr David Zeiger: I have originally boarded in family medicine over 30 years ago, and I recently got boarded in integrative medicine as a speciality about two years ago. I've been practising family medicine, functional medicine and for the past 30 years as well as doing things in neuromusculoskeletal medicine, including osteopathic manipulative medicine and using techniques called prolotherapy or neural therapy to treat chronic pain syndromes. So, a variety of different therapies in my practice gives me a large toolbox to work from as I work with my patients.

Linda Elsegood: So what is the age range of the patient population which you treat? Do you do from the cradle to the grave or do you do adult medicine? 

Dr David Zeiger: It's primarily adult medicine, but I occasionally do see some adolescents, some pre-teens. I mostly see patients from about 20 to about 80. I've had a couple of 90-year-old patients in my practice, it varies. I would say more it sways more towards a female population than a male population because I do a lot of hormone therapy in my practice for menopause, premenopause, infertility, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, et cetera.

Linda Elsegood: Out of interest, I know you prescribe LDN, and this is why I'm interviewing you, but do you use LDN for your patients with fertility problems? 

Dr David Zeiger: I haven't been using it in that direction yet. I've got a few patients who are interested in that and once they get back to me and I will. I have found LDN to be useful for a lot of autoimmune conditions: Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, Rheumatoid arthritis and lately I've been seeing a lot more patients with what's called small intestine bacterial overgrowth and with people who have a variety of different gastrointestinal dysbiotic syndromes, leaky gut syndrome, the inflammation thereof, I found LDN to be very useful in those patients. 

Linda Elsegood: You were saying about mainly females, I think it's usually the female population that has the most autoimmune diseases as well. I think with MS, it’s three women to one man. So that is probably why as well. When you find a patient who is suitable for LDN, how do you go about treating that patient?

Dr David Zeiger: What happens is I generally spend about a good hour with a new patient to get a complete history, do a very thorough physical, literally from head to toe. There's a variety of baseline laboratories that I may use to try and find out what are some of the targets that I'm to go after, be it dysbiotic, guts, the hormonal imbalance, inflammatory markers. I will then put everything together for the patient to explain, “these are the targets that I feel are probably the most significant avenues for therapy and using various different tools, LDN being one of them, I will then broach the patient with the information. I like to refer them to the LDN network, websites and other sources of information. I think that in the States there was a company that used to sell men's clothing and the owner of the company would say, “our best customer is an educated customer.” I feel that the best patient is an educated patient. I feel that as a physician. It's my responsibility and my calling to help, educate and guide patients towards the therapies that I think that are probably the most beneficial to them and answer all the questions I possibly can.

Linda Elsegood: What dose do you start your patients off at? 

Dr David Zeiger: I usually like to start at around 0.5 milligrams and then slowly increase to around 4.5 over a period of about 14-21 days, depending on how they respond. I haven't had the use of microdose. I have a few patients that are currently in my practice where I think it’s worth considering LDN as a beginning point for their therapy.

Linda Elsegood: You said that you have patients that take it for thyroid conditions, and we have learned that some patients who are on thyroid medications have to reduce the thyroid medications because the LDN makes it work more effectively. Have you found that in your patients?

Dr David Zeiger: Most definitely. I have had a number of patients who’ve had Hashimoto's thyroiditis for 15-20 years and they have been to a variety of different practitioners, including integrative practitioners and their antibody levels have been like in the thousands and what I've often found with many of the patients with autoimmune conditions, and I'll specifically talk about how she noticed for a second, is that about 70-80% of the patients with Hashimoto's have a dysbiotic issue, or they may have parasites, they may have protozoa worms, which is what I found in one patient, and by going after these organisms and then treating the results as an inflammatory condition, using LDN as well as other nutraceutical tools, I have been able to lower the antibody levels of these patients and, to improve this as an analogy, decrease the dependence on medications for thyroid over a period of several months. I have several patients where I've actually normalized levels, they have no antibody levels anymore in their thyroid, their TSH has gone down to normal. Their stamina and energy have significantly improved and many things that were tied into that, clinical wise, have also simply improved.

Linda Elsegood: To come off medications, it’s a box with a big tick in it. To achieve that, it's really something. Have you found, in any autoimmune condition, how important do you regard gluten in the diet? 

Dr David Zeiger: Well in SIBO, Dr Mark has been doing research on SIBO for around 25 years and they have published some of the most seminal articles on this, that diet is one of the hallmarks of therapy and when we look at what the components of that are, it revolves around the antigen load from things like gluten and casein from dairy, iron from corn and those are the things that can be major autoimmune triggers in many of these patients.

Linda Elsegood: How long would you say it takes for your patients to notice any improvement? 

Dr David Zeiger: Generally when I start working with the patient, if I had the lab tests and I like to use what is commonly referred to in functional medicine as the 4R program where you remove, replace, reinoculate, rebalance, et cetera. As well as helping the parenchyma of the gut or the gut lining to repair itself. I find that I can usually start seeing results in patients anywhere between 6-8 weeks within a program. They start to notice things like stamina, energy, less gas, less bloating, improvement in brain fog, inflammation in joints improving. I had one fellow who had been suffering from chronic urticaria for years and we're resolving after about six weeks for the first time in years. 

Linda Elsegood: How many new patients notified you of any adverse side effects? 

Dr David Zeiger: You know, that's definitely a case by case basis. I would say the major adverse effects that I see in LDN is a couple of things. Number one, vivid dreaming. Sometimes patients will say, I've never really remembered my dreams, or now I'm remembering my dreams and these are really intense, or they're in colour. The other thing is that sometimes some of our patients suffer from a lack of sleep. Sometimes a spillover into the next day where they might feel kind of groggy. But that usually is short-lived. Gastrointestinal side effects are usually very minimal and those are usually the people where I recommend to them to have a snack at that time with a good eight ounces water, with any sort of medication to mitigate the problems. Some people may have a hypochlorhydria where they’re not able to take tablets. Aside from that, I haven't had any other major problems like headaches or some of the other symptoms some people complain about simply because I really try to warn my patients ahead of time what to expect and if they had any issues, I tell them to give me a call right away. I can usually handle any minor things and address those issues right away. 

Linda Elsegood: What would you say the average dose is? I know you said you try and get them up to 4.5, but do all your patients get up to 4.5 or do some stick at a lower dose? 

Dr David Zeiger: I've had a number of patients stick around 2-2.5 milligrams and they seem to benefit quite well at that dosage. Well, that’s exactly what we found. It's not the higher the dose, the better the benefit. It's really unique and individual per person because some people do really good on two and then they begin to take 3 milligrams and they don't feel as good. Then, by going back they, they feel fine. 

Linda Elsegood: Have you treated any cancer patients?

Dr David Zeiger: I haven't had any cancer patients in my practice at this time. There are a couple of practices out there that have been dealing a lot more with integrative approaches to cancer and so generally what happens is that I will get a patient, they will come in and say they want a sort of functional medical approach to some relative nutritional deficiencies and they may have some other issues, some musculoskeletal issues that I may treat. Then what I may say is, “if you want more of an integrative and well-balanced program…”, I'll refer them out to these other practices that specialize in integrative cancer therapy.

Linda Elsegood: If you had to pick a condition, would you say thyroid is the condition you treat the most in your practice? 

Dr David Zeiger: It’s very interesting that you mentioned that. I would say 70% of my patients have Hashimoto's thyroiditis. It's very rampant.

Linda Elsegood: That's very high. What do you do in order to lower that number of patients? 

Dr David Zeiger: I came onto the Hashimoto's scene probably around 20 years ago and I remember when I was in medical school, we were taught that this was a very rare condition but when I got into practice, I found that it was much more common and actually close to 20% of the patients that have hypothyroidism and the reasons for that were always something that I was curious about. One of the things that I started looking into were things like what are the possible autoimmune triggers. We know from the human genome project that only 12-18% of diseases are actually genetic in nature. The rest of the diseases are due to epigenetic causes. So what are those epigenetic causes? We're looking at things like different pathogen infestations, microorganisms like Blastocystis, hominins, certain protozoa. Another factor in there is stress on the immune system. Diet and nutrition, nutritional deficiencies, another, another factor. Unfortunately, over the past 60-70 years or more, the population has become more and more exposed to these kinds of pathogenic factors and I think this is what is causing a lot of the autoimmune conditions that we see today. 

Linda Elsegood: Do you think people seek you out through word of mouth that you're the man to see if you have a thyroid condition? 

Dr David Zeiger: That's what I hear. So there are people with thyroid conditions, then, of course, those with chronic fatigue syndrome. 

Linda Elsegood: How do you find people with chronic fatigue syndrome compared with the thyroid? I have found people with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue who are ultra-sensitive to all drugs. LDN included.

Dr David Zeiger: What I've come to see is that many of these conditions have a lot of things in common. I guess the rubric that I would use since I'm also trained in homoeopathy is inflammation, which causes this inflammation, and as I mentioned a moment ago, there are many epigenetic triggers for this. So, depending upon the person's individual biochemical makeup, they will be more prone to the manifestation, all various different diseases, be it thyroid or be it adrenal or be it SIBO. What I find is that when I work with a patient, I look for those factors that will create an inflammatory condition, and then based on their family history, based on the physical findings, I can then hone that into various different subsystems or organ systems that I need to focus my attention on. Be it the thyroid, be it the adrenal, be it hormone imbalances between estrogen, progesterone, et cetera.

Linda Elsegood: With regards to the neuromuscular pain that you treat, and as you were just saying there, how inflammation plays a big part in these conditions, what techniques do you use to treat neuromuscular pain? 

Dr David Zeiger: Well, I'm an osteopathic physician. So I have been trained in medicine so using osteopathic manipulative therapies, I use that modality. I was also trained in medical acupuncture. I use that from time to time. If there are other certain other kinds of, say ligamentous instabilities, I will use a technique called prolotherapy, which is an injection technique to regenerate the ligaments. The interesting thing is that we talk about autoimmune conditions, one of the things that we find with SIBO patients or some of these other conditions is that you may have a variant of a syndrome, which is genetically inherited weakness of the ligaments. It can also be related to certain inflammatory factors in the body that can be triggered by various different things I've just mentioned. So looking at all these different kinds of moving parts, you try to get a picture of what is the most impactful on the patients and health then focus on those things that you can start to build a foundation of health for them.

Linda Elsegood: You were saying that you are an osteopathic physician, and I have seen a chiropractor. What is the difference between the two? 

Dr David Zeiger: That's, that's a very good question. Chiropractic actually evolved from osteopathic medicine. Andrew Taylor Still, who was the founder of osteopathic medicine in the 1800s hundreds, developed osteopathic techniques. A fellow by the name of Palmer was a student of Still. He was also at that time was a hypnotist and he went off and founded a chiropractic practice. So the evolution of the two professions sort of had a certain amount of parallelism between the two of them. The difference between chiropractic and osteopathy is that osteopathic medicine is basically maintained, all of official allopathic medicine. As a matter of fact, osteopathic medicine was the first medical professional to incorporate x-rays. As an osteopath, I have an unlimited license to practice medicine and surgery, whereas a chiropractor has a limited license to practice, basically manual medicine. They cannot give injections. They cannot deliver babies. They cannot do ICU medicine. Although some chiropractors now are trying to become what they call internal chiropractors, internal medicine chiropractors. It's more of functional medicine, but they cannot prescribe hypertensive and I happen to take medication. They can't prescribe antibiotics, those kinds of things that I, as an osteopathic physician and surgeon can. 

Linda Elsegood: I have MS and before I was diagnosed different things kept going numb and I saw a chiropractor, but he had this way of running his fingers down my spine and would say, does it hurt here? He would press really hard with his thumbs. But then he would also get a hold of your neck and twist it to the side until it cracked. I didn't like that. That put me off osteopathic medicine. 

Dr David Zeiger: The palpatory techniques are highly developed. Being able to feel for joint mobility, tissue texture changes, is this inflamed? Is this boggy? Is this hard? I can tell you that when we are assessing a patient. Structurally, those are the skills that we use with our hands because we're talking in that way. Also we use our visual perception of like, how a person walks, how they stand, how they sit and then listen to the patient. Are they talking? So we're basically incorporating all of these other skills of palpation percussion, auscultation, which is hearing. As any other doctor does, any other physician does. Then we understand the biomechanics of the body. So when we look at how the shoulder moves or the hip moves, and then getting into finer detail within the cranium. Osteopathy, which has been around for 80 years or more, it's where we can actually palpate the very subtle motions of the movement of the cranial bones. These things don't fuse until death or certain disease states. Cranial osteopaths are able to determine how well they are functioning, how the different bones are functioning in relationship to one another. If you were to look inside the head and you look in the brain and you see the brain sitting on top of what they call the tentorium, which is like these membranes, all the nerves. I come off the brain and go through the membrane, which is all the ligaments, and then go down through like little holes in the skull down into these cranial nerves that go into the eyes and the nose or down to the neck, and if there is head trauma, surgical trauma, inflammation or infection, then these membranes can then become twisted, inflamed, boggy and cause basically a restriction of flow and thereby affect the end-organ tissue. So train cranial osteopaths to look at this when they're treating, children with cerebral palsy or children with autism, or people who have had PTSD or people who have had chronic headaches, migraine headaches, et cetera. 

Linda Elsegood: We've come to the end of the show, but for people who are in Chicago or the Chicago area in Illinois, how do they get a hold of you? Where do they go? 

Dr David Zeiger: You could call my office at 312-255-9444 and the name of the practice is Healthworks Integrative Medical Clinic. 

Linda Elsegood: Do you have a website for that?

Dr David Zeiger: Healthworksimc.com

Linda Elsegood: Do you have a waiting list?

Dr David Zeiger: I do but if somebody calls me up and they say “I really need to see you”, I will get them in somehow. 

Linda Elsegood: Thank you very much for being such an amazing guest today. I do appreciate it. 

Dr David Zeiger: Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk to you and thank you for your time. 

Linda Elsegood: This show is sponsored by Mark Drugs who specialize in the custom compounding of medications, ensuring that the client gets the proper prescriptions for their unique needs and conditions. They work with practitioners integrating knowledge and treatment of experts. To create comprehensive health plans, visit markdrugs.com or call Roselle at (630) 529-3400 or (847) 419-9898.

Any questions or comments you may have. Please email me at Contact@ldnresearchtrust.org. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciated your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well.

Paul Battle PA-C - Crohn's Disease (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Dr Melissa Coats, LDN Radio Show 14 Nov 2018 (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Linda Elsegood: Today my guest is Dr Melissa Coats from Arizona in the US. She is a naturopathic oncologist. Thank you for joining us today, Melissa. 

Melissa Coats: Thank you for having me. 

Linda Elsegood: Well, could you just give us an idea of your background, first of all, please? 

Melissa Coats: Sure. Initially growing up, I always knew I wanted to be a physician, I think, or in medicine. And when I went to school far away from home in Lynchburg, Virginia at Randolph-Macon Woman's College I focused on biology. And then after that, I didn't exactly know what part of medicine I wanted to do. So I decided to get a Masters in bioethics while I was deciding, and when I discovered bioethics, I stumbled across naturopathic medicine. Once I read the philosophy and what it was all about, I knew that was where I needed to be. Once I finished my Masters at Midwestern University, I went on to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, which was in Tempe, Arizona. And I didn't even realize it was in my native state. And so I learned all about naturopathic medicine and went on to school there, and ever since, here I am.

Linda Elsegood: Wow. And when were you first introduced to LDN? 

Melissa Coats: I believe my first introduction was through my mentor and colleague, Dr Daniel Rubin. He had co-written an article about low dose naltrexone, I think back in 2006, for its use in pancreatic cancer. And Dr Berkson who uses it a lot at his clinic, where he does a lot of hepatitis C treatment, also was very interesting to me So I learned a lot from both of them. And from then on, I've been doing more and more research and just using it in a multitude of ways with different types of things beyond cancer. But cancer is obviously one of the bigger ones that we focus on here at our clinic.  

Linda Elsegood: Could you give us an idea of your protocols for treating cancer patients, and which cancers you've actually treated with LDN?

Melissa Coats: Probably one of the bigger ones we typically put people on it for are those who have breast and colon and pancreatic cancer. Those are some that we definitely do, but we know there's some efficacy with ovarian and neuroblastoma and glioblastoma and even squamous cell carcinomas. Pretty much because of the natural killer cell and the immune stimulation that it gives.

We've found it is a very nice adjunctive thing to add on to most treatment protocols, so we utilize it quite often, usually starting with a lower dose. Depending on the sensitivity of the patient, maybe 1.5 all the way up to 4.5 milligrams, depending on what's going on and making sure that we're not conflicting with any pain medication use, of course, if the patient's had surgery or things like that.

We also, me particularly in the clinic, like to use it for other things as well. One of my very first patients actually wasn’t an oncology patient that I utilized it in - it was a person who had undiagnosed celiac disease for 25 years, and her gastrointestinal system was just a giant mess, and she was miserable. It was one of the things that I decided to introduce to a kind of calm her autoimmune issues that were going on, including her thyroid. And it really seemed to calm her gut. And she said it was like a miracle to her, and we even tested going off of it briefly to see if that was truly what was happening. And it was definitely the low dose naltrexone that was helping calm things for her. And so that was one of my first introductions to the power of it. And from then on, I've been utilizing it in many ways since  

Linda Elsegood: What are the therapies you use alongside LDN?

Melissa Coats: Currently, here in Arizona, we have the ability to give IV nutrients, so we use IV alpha-lipoic acid alongside the LDN. Sometimes it's vitamin C, IV. We utilize other supplements, as well, to focus on different parts of what the person needs as far as support if they're during chemotherapy or radiation or other treatments who may have anything going on.

We also utilize sometimes another natural killer cell stimulator, which is mistletoe, but we only give that in a sub Q injection versus IV here in Arizona. There's often a combination of things that we utilize with LDN to help the patient get the best for their immune system and whatever other issues they're having.

...

Melissa Coats: Sometimes, most of those patients are already on LDN, so it's definitely a good part of the mix. We definitely like to make a treatment plan very individualized to each patient, and so there's often quite a multitude of things going on at once, whether it's ... LDN, IVs, a diet plan, whatever it is. We like to bring it all together for them so that they can feel their best. 

Linda Elsegood: And you mentioned a diet plan there. Of course, with cancer, sugar. Is a no, no. What kind of a diet do you suggest patients follow? 

Melissa Coats: A lot of our suggestions as far as diet are either to focus on a very anti-inflammatory or a Mediterranean style diet. The ketogenic diet is obviously big news right now. So that is definitely utilized depending on if the patient's in a good place to do that or not. If they're in a very cachectic state or their weight is very low, we may or may not utilize that, but if they're in a place where it looks like they would benefit greatly from the anti-inflammatory effect of being on the ketogenic diet, we definitely introduce that. Definitely a big part of our consults with patients is spending a lot of time on the diet because we believe food is one of the greatest medicines you can put in your body if you're utilizing it properly.  

Linda Elsegood: And what's the age range of the patients that you treat? 

Melissa Coats: We have little tiny babies all the way up to, I think one of our patients right now that we have that I also believe is onLDN is 89. So we have quite the age range going on here in our clinic. I would say the majority of my patients range in their mid-twenties to like in the seventies and eighties. So we have quite the group. 

Linda Elsegood: And you were saying that you treated the lady with celiac disease. Have you treated any other autoimmune diseases? 

Melissa Coats: Yes. Of the ones that I've seen some benefit, a few patients who have lupus who've seen some benefit; in rheumatoid arthritis we have definitely seen some help in calming some of that; a lot of Crohn's and colitis. I definitely really see a lot of benefit with LDN when you bring in GI issues that are very inflammatory and sometimes immune-mediated. So it's definitely been helpful. I also have utilized it quite often with Hashimoto's thyroiditis to kind of calm the thyroid antibodies, and they seem to note that their thyroid works more efficiently and we see better numbers on labs when they're on the LDN, and less need for medication, which is nice.

Linda Elsegood: So the patients that you know are on LDN for thyroid, do you taper up slowly? How, what is your protocol for that? 

Melissa Coats: The patients mostly have been able to start at three milligrams, and I haven't really had to taper them per se, up or down. Sometimes we just watch the numbers and kind of see how they're feeling, and I may start them at three and just have them check-in with me about how they are feeling, whether that's too much, too little? It hasn't seemed to cause any major side effects, which is why I love using it so much because most people have a great response. 

I forgot about one case that I specifically wanted to tell you about. I have two patients that have autoimmune hepatitis that has been very difficult for them to wean off their steroids. And we have been utilizing LDN probably for the last year and their numbers as far as their liver markers, their AST and ALT have definitely decreased significantly since starting the low dose naltrexone, and I have finally been able to taper to a much lower dose of their steroids, which is wonderful because they hadn’t gotten to a low dose before without the LDN. And we found that using the LDN has made them much more successful and they're very excited about that. The thyroid becomes more efficient with the use of the LDN. They definitely need less medication, which is wonderful. So I usually check thyroid labs when I'm changing things up, every four to six weeks. And so definitely I've had many patients have to reduce their dose because of the LDN, which has been great.

Linda Elsegood: So when a patient comes to see you, let's just say a cancer patient, how would you go about putting that plan together? What is the procedure you follow?

Melissa Coats: When we meet, we initially have at least an hour consultation. We have really extensive forms that they fill out ahead of time, so that I have a really good understanding of their history, and we try to request records so we’re already in the know of what's going on so that we can spend a lot of time talking with each other about goals and where they want to begin.

While we're in consult, we actually type up a protocol so that they leave with a piece of paper that says what labs they are going to get., what treatment plans and treatment options we are interested in doing, whether that's IV or starting low dose naltrexone or some supplements. And then we make sure that there's a clear understanding if we need to check-in and get a diet diary, or what changes should be made immediately.

So they leave with that protocol in their hands so that they feel like not only did we meet and get a good understanding of what's going on, but we have a plan in action that first day, which I think is very powerful in making a patient feel empowered about taking control of their health. And we also kind of keep updating that protocol each time we meet so that if a supplement doesn't work out or we need to add something, they know exactly what's going on and can keep track, which is helpful to everybody involved.

Linda Elsegood: I was speaking to Dr Berkson, and he taught me that alpha-lipoic acid is to be taken intravenously, that it wasn't as effective in tablet form. And the other day somebody was telling me that no, the tablet form works just as well as the intravenous. So I'm now confused. Has it changed? What's your take on it? Exactly. 

Melissa Coats: My understanding is with IVs, you're bypassing the GI and you're getting full absorption; whereas orally you'd have to take a lot more, and obviously the doses are different. The IV amount we go up to is about 600 milligrams, whereas orally we're giving someone up to 1200 milligrams a day. Typically we use both, so when they're not here, they're on it orally. And then when they're in an office, they don't need to take their oral dose that day because they're getting the IV version of it  But from a strengths perspective, and I'll have to check the latest studies, I guess now that you say that, my understanding from Dr Berkson and his protocol that I've been utilizing for a number of years now, that the IV seems to be pretty vital.

Linda Elsegood: That's what he told me, so I've just wanted to check that. 

Melissa Coats: We haven't changed our protocols yet as far as I know. When I can't get numbers to move from oral dosages of things, I definitely bring in the IV protocols, and that seems to make a difference. 

Linda Elsegood: And what about vitamin C taken intravenously? Is that really effective that way? 

Melissa Coats: For absorption issues and things like that? I would say yes, because, from the standpoint of orally, most people can't handle maybe roughly above six to eight grams because it causes a lot of GI distress, even if it's buffered, whereas IV we give people up to a hundred grams, which is way past what anyone could take orally. We know that that creates a different type of stress on the cells, that it can help with reducing vascular endothelial growth factor and other inflammatory markers related to cancer.

Linda Elsegood: And if you read about vitamin C and it talks about water-soluble fat-soluble and it's flushing out of your system if you take too much, or you take too much intravenously.

Melissa Coats: It’s pretty much individualized as well. Some people can't handle certain doses. There are some patients that feel great at 40 grams, and others that can take a hundred grams and feel just as great. So it kinda depends on the person. There are tests to check also whether their plasma level of vitamin C, so that's something that we have utilized in the past.

And then based on our clinical knowledge from using it for a long time. We have kind of figured out where people tend to do well. Yes, it doesn't stay in you forever. It is leaving the body, and there's a lot that's going through the kidneys and being voided out, but for the time that it is in the body and doing what it's doing to the cells.

And if you come on a fairly regular basis, you are creating an environment that is, less available for cancer to grow. So you're creating an environment that is not what they will utilize. So that's why we use it so often. We also use alpha-lipoic acid because it's a powerful antioxidant. And then some of the other nutrients that are out there too. 

Linda Elsegood: A few years ago I had an operation, and as I came to I was in quite a bit of pain, and they gave me intravenous paracetamol, and I was thinking to myself, the pain was quite bad, and I was wondering why they are giving me paracetamol? You know, that's not gonna do any good. And it worked. I was absolutely pieced. I thought, paracetamol isn't very strong, but apparently, it's stronger if it's taken intravenously, as it goes through the metabolism by the liver. It just goes right in. I was surprised at that.

So, vitamin C, minerals, and supplements. Do you have any favourite ones? I mean, obviously, it's individually tailored to the person. But on the whole, what would you say? 

Melissa Coats: We utilize a lot in the oncology world, things that basically kinda change the terrain for cancers. So one of the things that I've utilized a lot is modified citrus pectin, which targets galectin-3, and by lowering that, you allow protection of good, healthy cells and keep other tissues healthy. So, for example, with a woman with breast cancer in one breast, you want to try and protect the other breast. So that we found that this can be helpful. And if she's going to be having surgery or a biopsy, having this on board can kind of help prevent the spread of the other rogue cells. In studies, that's what's been confirmed. So it's something that we've utilized a lot. 

And I use some mushrooms, a whole bunch of different ones. Coriolis mushroom, to help your white blood cells keep your immune system healthy. So that's a big one that we use. And then things that target vascular endothelial growth factor, which is basically kind of a signal for angiogenesis or blood vessels to grow around a tumour.

And so there are numerous things that target angiogenesis. One is a magnolia extract. There are other herbs as well that do that. So obviously vitamin C. And then there's some thought that if you stimulate things like the natural killer cell function with low dose naltrexone, that you may be inhibiting some of those other pathways in a roundabout way. So that's why it's a of things. Quercetin, resveratrol; and curcumin is a huge one, which is the active constituent found in turmeric. There's a lot. And that's why we constantly are trying to throw different curveballs at the immune system to help people fight cancer. And so that's why we utilize so many different things, because if you just use one agent, obviously the immune system and the cancer is going to figure that way around it. And so you want to make sure that we help. 

Linda Elsegood: Do probiotics play a role?

Melissa Coats: Oh, yes, definitely. The GI health and having a really good balanced flora of good bugs in the body is definitely key.

When I'm not focusing on cancer, I really do believe in the gut-brain connection. If your gut is unhealthy, so will your brain be unhealthy. And so making sure that you have good flora can definitely help people's mood and their anxiety and stress responses. It's pretty amazing. So I love probiotics and what they can do. 

Linda Elsegood: I was looking at probiotics, and you start off with what I would call a reasonably priced product. So I was reading the labels - this one has that many million and this one has got different strains in it. I was just lost. I didn't know what it was I should be behind. Which was the best? Is it a case of the more money you spend, the better the product you're getting, or should you be looking deeper than just the price you're paying? 

Melissa Coats: I think it's probably a combination of both. Hopefully, the more expensive products are good. If not, then they're just gouging you. But the main thing for us is it's good to get a variety of strains. So not just acidophilus always. You want to make sure you're getting lactobacillus and bifidobacterium, and you want multiple strains of those types of bacteria depending on what you're trying to work with, with the gut. Also, we're a big fan of billions versus millions because you don't know how much is actually lost or killed off into your absorption and what your stomach acid is doing to those bugs. Depending on how they're put into a capsule, there's always some that aren't going to make it. So the more, the merrier, hoping that you'll be colonizing the gut with some good stuff. I always tell people to rotate brands, and also research the brand and make sure that however they have them, they can prove that when they get their product on the shelf, that those bugs are still alive in there if they're supposed to be, and not been heat shocked in transit and are no longer anything other than a pill filled with nothing. So it may be that that is cost-prohibitive, but normally most of the products that are pretty good are similar in price. 

I think that there's some that are really high in the billions that are intensive protocols that you may only be doing for a week or two, that may be more costly. It just kinda depends, which is why we recommend you usually see someone who has done the research versus just buying a product at the grocery store that's just been sitting on the shelf for you have no idea how long. And so it's good to kind of find that out before you spend the money and then are disappointed.

Oh, vitamin D is another one. Yes, it also depends on the person's absorption. Sometimes I've switched patients from a capsule form to a liquid form and have them hold it under their tongue because they didn't seem to be getting anything from their capsule. And that could be a reflection of the way they absorb through their GI, or if it needs to be more sublingual in their case. And usually, the dose probably needs to be higher than they thought it needed to be. Based on our labs, if someone's our range - here for example, one of the labs we use the range is 30 to 100, and we like to see people between 60 and 80. And so that may take them taking 10,000 units a day for a while, and then they may be able to ramp back, or they may have to take more than that depending on their absorption status. But you kind of play with what seems to work for them. And yeah, there's a lot of different brands on the market. 

Linda Elsegood: What about omega-3s?

Melissa Coats: Yes. The key thing with omega-3s for me is making sure that it's a very pure product, that it's not from fish that are in a farm lot being fed dog food or something horrible like that. They need to be deep-sea coldwater fish, hopefully sustainably raised. And then the capsules themselves, when you're looking at it, you want to make sure that they're fresh. So hopefully the product has some sort of date on it that tells you that those haven't been sitting and becoming rancid.

The key is to look at the EPA and DHA content. If it's fish oil it'll typically show you EPA and DHA, and you want that to add up to over a thousand milligrams within just one or two capsules versus having to take ten capsules to get there because otherwise, you're not getting the benefit of the anti-inflammatory effect, the good healthy cholesterol effect and everything else that goes along with it.

Linda Elsegood: I was talking to a nutritionist a few years ago now. And she was saying if you had an inferior product, they usually have vitamin A in them. And the more tablets you take, the more vitamin A you're taking and you can overdose on vitamin A.

Melissa Coats: Yeah, you've really got to make sure it's a pure product. That could be bad. And that will give you a nasty headache and make you not feel good at all. But the one I believe that we carry here, as far as I know, is just really focused on the omegas aspect of it.

Linda Elsegood: Yes. And what about people who are vegans? Can you take flaxseed oil to do the same?  

Melissa Coats: You could do flax or chia seeds. Also just eating healthy oils like avocado oil, olive oil, coconut oil. You know, there's a lot of different ways to get in. Omega fatty acids that do not necessarily require a fish or krill.

Linda Elsegood: I was reading the other day an article on coconut oil where they were saying that previous research was incorrect and it wasn't as healthy as they made out. What is your stance on that?

Melissa Coats: I don't think it's the healthiest oil, but definitely, but I still see some benefit in using it, particularly the medium-chain triglycerides that come from coconut oil. Or we use MCT oil sometimes instead of just coconut oil. But if someone is just occasionally throwing a little bit of coconut oil into their smoothie, I haven't seen it detrimentally affect them and I've seen some good studies with Alzheimer's and Parkinson's research, that it helps the brain. So the MCT from coconut oil is helpful. 

I think it's also a matter of where you're getting it. If it's this big tub of coconut oil from a big box store, that may not be great versus actually getting small organic coconut oil, which might be a better option. With the ketogenic diet, they often mentioned using MCT oil does help supplement your fat content. And that's been a very pure product, and it usually doesn't have a coconut taste, but it's from coconuts. So people can use that if they don't like the coconut flavour. 

And it's nice because if you need to gain weight, it's a good way to add a hundred calories or more. Most people are not looking for that, but sometimes in the oncology world, we need to help people get more out of their meals. And because that doesn't have a taste like coconut oil, it's helpful. I don't think coconut oil is horrible, but I definitely don't recommend it to be someone's only source of fat for sure. And definitely, it is not an oil that cooks well at high heat. It will actually oxidize it and make it an unhealthy thing. So we usually recommend people use avocado oil for that. 

Linda Elsegood: Wonderful. The half an hour is up. It's gone very quickly. This was Dr Melissa coats and thank you so much. Before we go, can you tell people how they can contact you? 

Melissa Coats: Yes. You can contact us through our website at www.listenandcare.com, or you can give us a call at (480) 990-1111. And you can even have a 10-minute free consultation if you like.

Linda Elsegood: Oh wow, so we have nothing to lose and everything to gain. 

Melissa Coats: Thank you so much for having me.

Linda Elsegood: This show is sponsored by Dickson Chemist, experts in LDN and associated treatments in the UK. Dickson Chemist, the most cost-effective for LDN in all forms within the UK and Europe. They are maintaining safety standards far in excess of what is required. Why would you choose to get your LDN from anywhere else? Call 0800 027 6910 today to speak to the LDN experts.

Any questions or comments you may have, please Contact Us on our website at https://ldnresearchtrust.org/contact_us. 

I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well.

Dr John Kim, MD - 7th November 2018 (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Linda Elsegood: I'd like to welcome back Dr John Kim, who I know many of you have listened to his radio shows in the past. He's always got exciting things to tell us. So welcome, John and thank you for joining us today. 

John Kim: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your effort in making Low Dose Naltrexone all front and centre in the integrative functional world.

And I think that it's even going beyond that. I'm even talking to talking to specialists within K U  in Kent, University of Kansas Medical Centre specialists, all talking about low dose naltrexone. So I think that, um, you and the listeners have done a great job putting this issue of light in the middle is the front end centre.

Linda Elsegood: Well, I have to say you're certainly one of those doctors who liked to push the envelope, think outside the box, to try to find solutions for patients who are complex, should we say? Because I mean, some people are harder to treat than others with all the different symptoms. 

John Kim: I think you said it. Oh, you've nailed it.

The word complex and my patients tend to be very complex, the integrative medicine St Paul appears to attract patients that are complex. And it's what's interesting is all part of the training that I had with Dr Andrew Weil was the theory of complexity. How do you, um, approach complex issues?  How do you solve complex medical problems? And he's always said that you want to go to the area where everything gets together like sort of a nexus of issues. So for Dr Andrew Weil it has been inflammation, which we will come back to, to LDN. And to me, it's been autoimmune or immune dysregulation that I've seen.

And it's just very interesting because this all started with one patient, one patient who came to me and said, Dr Kim, I have learned about this new idea called Low Dose Naltrexone and I have a thyroid disorder, and I would like to try it. So I told the patient that I would like you to research it. So because I am used to having complex patients, I researched it and really the potential benefit versus potential harm, I really saw more potential benefit that I didn't see much harm in them trying LDN and to make a long story short this has transformed my practice if anything, autoimmune really gets limited what I can I that acid. Oh, and put them on an anti-inflammatory diet, but a supplement, but I wasn't getting what I call reliable, repeatable results until we went to LDN.  And LDN is not 100% doesn't work 100%, but I think that it has achieved all a form on reliability or repeatability. For me.

Linda Elsegood: LDN is only one of the tools you have in your toolbox. What do you use in conjunction with LDN? 

John Kim: So for, I think that one of the things that I find most fascinating is that, in this day and age, immune dysregulation, I'm seeing a lot more allergies, food allergies, and in integrative medicine, a lot of times people say, Oh, just don't eat it.

And it's easy for the practitioners saying, but really by the time you take out all gluten, I'll take out yeast, take out the milk, it's very difficult. It's very. It can be done. But if you try to go outside, like in a restaurant or social settings, they're difficult. So one of the things that I have discovered again, through a patient, um, who was really suffering a lot because of food allergy, is there's a way to teach your body, in conjunction with Low Dose Naltrexone, to not to react to food allergies, teach it to stand down, and it's called our food allergy drops that all that they can do Amazing work. And then other tools, of course, you think of food as medicine, and I think that we understand better and better how powerful food can be. One example of this, of course, it is a vegetarian diet, an anti-inflammatory diet, and there's also ketosis that is ever more popular. Um, and of course there is Dr Terry Walls, um, modified Palio diet for autoimmune diseases and I think there are some commonalities to all these conditions.

And so we use food as medicine, one of the other tools that I love, that goes very well and hand in hand with LDN, is acupuncture and the reason I say that acupuncture are gone hand in hand is that the earlier we search with how acupuncture works have been shown demonstrated by using Naloxone, a related like a constant of naltrexone and naltrexone.

So we know that if you want to disrupt—the effects of acupuncture you can use high dose naltrexone, meaning it's possible that acupuncture is doing what LDN would be doing, and there's a paper that was written and published by a Dutch professor hypothesizes that cannabinoids, LDN, acupuncture probably share the same pathway.

And I think that that is one of the most exciting, um, ideas that, um, uh, propelled me because I started using LDN more widely than autoimmune when I read an article that LDN may have anti-inflammatory effects and since then, or how, what happened is that patients who couldn't come or could not afford acupuncture because one of the most effective tools about LDN is the cost.

For less than a dollar a day you can treat the most complex conditions using LDN. So all but acupuncture when it didn't work, or it was too far out prescribed, those people offer them, which, because LDN and I've become trusting to do similar kind of things, let's use LDN in view of acupuncture, and I would see amazing results.

And that's where all especially with pain and neuropathy, especially Um, and then now we know the basis of it and molecular basis of it because of dr Jerry younger, uh, did, uh, published articles on fibromyalgia and using LDN with demonstrated LDN is helpful or help people with fibromyalgia. And the mechanism is fascinating because in, um, professor.

Younger is basically proposing LDN. Low dose naltrexone is functioning as an anti glial cell modulator, which there is another anti glial cell modulator but LDN is amazing because of many, many properties. It can penetrate into the brain. I think it's a quarternary. I mean, so he can, he is able to go to the CNS. Um, relatively rapidly metabolized into another compound that can stay in the body for a long time.

So really you're getting the effect of LDN in, um, and it still works as a, um, opioid antagonists, which means that you still, you're getting endorphin in peripheral as well as the central nervous system as well as in the body. It's just really amazing. Um, and then of course, um, the, the anti glial cell modulation, it just opens up all kinds of therapeutic possibilities.

Linda Elsegood: It's amazing, isn't it? Before we go on further with LDN, and I know people are going to pick up on what you said about you teaching your body too, how did you explain it? Eat foods that you are intolerant of to teach your body so you can eat those foods? How would you go about doing that? 

John Kim: So, um, there is a protocol developed in Wisconsin, and that's the poor uncle. Then I modified, what I do is that I do a generalized food allergy test. That, uh, what I call, what a wide-angle or shotgun approach where we can test a relatively large number of allergens, food, allergens at a very low cost. So that as a screening tool, once I have that tool, um, I discuss with patients, usually I give them the results and give them the ordering sheet about tests that's more specific, but more importantly, it is quantitative. Because it's truly quantitative or it's quantitative enough that it can be turned into an allergy drop. So then what you can do is you can use food allergy drops that are specifically targeting specific food at a specific dose. So you can - Well, it's similar to an allergy shot. I think it's safer because it's through the mouth. I think most of Europe is familiar with this approach. Um, and uh, the big advantage is safe because you can swish and spit and you're looking for reactions, any kind of reactions, that means that those may be too high. And then you just simply pull back to those or ask the pharmacy to, uh, formulate a the more dilute a portion.

Linda Elsegood: That's amazing. 

John Kim: and, and it goes well with LDN because a lot of patients, I ask them to do both LDN to all function as an anti-glial modulator to decrease its immune systems or tendency to overreact. And then in the meanwhile, I use the, uh, food allergy drops to lower the dose, and you can do that with environmental allergy combined LDN plus, um, plus the food, the environmental allergy drops. You just don't want to do them together. You don't want to start both of them and simultaneously because you may overwhelm the body and into, um, like a crisis. And we don't want to do that. And patients who I do this too, I prescribed, um, EpiPen to make sure that they have safety. And well, first, those, they have to take it in front of me so that I have to make sure that they are okay. They have my cell phone number. Um, and these days I think cell phone number better than the home number. So they can text me, they can email me, they can call me if they are in trouble. 

Linda Elsegood: Wow. Wow. To have a doctor who would let you text him? That's a very good service. Very good. So what else do you have to tell us? Um, that's new with LDN  John?

John Kim: So, um, the LDN part I find very interesting is that, um, I think when we first connected, the world at that time was using 1.5 milligrams as a starting dose. Now I think that most people are open to starting at 0.5 milligrams.

And even the reason I did that was I saw some, uh, category of the population of my patients who the endorphin levels were so low that at that level people had side effects. And. I've since then cut it down to 0.1 milligrams or a hundred micrograms and um, and that cut out fewer people now have a reaction, but I'm still seeing people with reaction.

So about two years ago, I started people at ten micrograms, and recently something happened with, I think the regulation that, well, I'll be, pharmacies now have to assay and prove that the amount of LDN is what it is and, or, you know, appears to some pharmacies are boarding Turley doing it, which is an excellent practice.

But as a result of it, I think the essay just doesn't work very well below a certain level. So now, um, the, some of the Compounding pharmacies, they are capable of making one microgram, but they can't guarantee it's one microgram. There's no way to assay it. So what I do now is that I, uh, I will get all the pharmacy to make a hundred microgram, all tablets, not, not a capsule, so that patients can break it in half, which becomes 50 micrograms.

And then they break that in half. It goes 25 micrograms and then once they can prove that they can tolerate it, then they can do a rapid offset increase 0.2 5.51 or basically 25 micrograms, 50 micrograms, a hundred micrograms, 200 micrograms, 500 micrograms at which that dose is where people ….

So maybe takes two months to ramp up. But I think that um, that the more complex your patients are and more they are endorphin depleted, um, that I think that is a good thing to do. So I just asked them very simple questions.

How do you sleep? Um, and people tell me its terrible than that, that makes me, uh, think that, that they're, they, they are a good candidate for a lower dose on another thing I ask is. After you get up, do you feel well-rested if the patient said, no, I, I'm sleeping a lot, but I'm not feeling very well rested is another question?

And then the third question is the resiliency question, which I made up. I said, Hey, listen if I give you a limited amount of money and I drop you off anywhere in the world, how confident do you feel you can get back and without having like psychological crises? And. Well, if people say, no, no big deal, I can get back -  just some little bit of stress, but patients, Oh my God, that would kill me. Low dose, then I would choose with a low dose. Um, but I would say if the patient were healthy, I, I don't mind starting them out at 0.1mg, I still don't want to do 0.5 because, um, I experimented with it and, um, on purpose took a higher dose and really, not everyone has a reaction, but once you have the reaction, you don't want to look at LDN. And I think it's, so, LDN can be a fantastical tool, so I don't want to, my patients would lose access to it by having a bad reaction.

Linda Elsegood: What conditions would you say, John, you are using LDN mainly for? 

John Kim: Well, you know, I think that, um, the autoimmune I think is the most popular use. Um, now, of course, we do that, but if you ask most people, most practitioners why it works, um, they will talk about endorphin, and I'm not sure that's entirely correct.

I think the side effect from a high dose of naltrexone affecting people badly is because they're triggering the complete and total depletion of endorphin by blockading the opioid receptor, especially the mu receptor. But I think that it's more likely that the autoimmune diseases are helped by the anti glial cell modulation that professor younger is talking about, and the significance of this is that now you can move beyond autoimmune, you can treat nerve disorders, if there's pain which has the basis inflammation, like fibromyalgia, in theory, is supposed to not have inflammation but stop the population of them.

I've noticed that they have high inflammatory markers, like C reactive protein, even ESR. Then I'll then LDN becomes another tool. But anything where you're suspecting that there is an immune dysregulation or over response of the immune system, especially within the central nervous system, I think that LDN becomes an invaluable tool. And I think that understanding the mechanism allows for flexible use of low dose naltrexone and I would like to invite all the listeners to come to the next 2019 LDN conference in Portland where I am honoured and privileged to share some of my observations, ideas about low dose naltrexone, um, pushing the frontiers on and the use of LDN.

Linda Elsegood: Well, I'm sure everybody would be thrilled to hear that. As I said, you always have new ideas, different theories, different ways of tackling a problem that is faced by many prescribers, with patients with complex conditions. So is there anything else that has been going on in your world of medicine? 

John Kim: Well, I think that all, as I said, I think the most, um, some of the most interesting things that I see with LDN is once you have the LDN mechanism.

So I have a patient that has resistance. Um, depression. And now within the field of psychiatry, there's thinking that some of the depression may have inflammatory components. So within a  short amount of time, less than one month, I have an elderly woman who says, Oh, I'm using it for pain purposes, but the patients are “Oh my God, I still have pain, but I, what did you do with my depression”?

So all that's, that's another tool that I think is all very, very interesting to start thinking about. It's like what other inflammatory conditions do we have? And here's where knowing the mechanism really helps the practitioners to think outside the box. Because if you can view as anything that has brain inflammation or central nervous system, peripheral nervous system, inflammatory condition, um, all of a sudden you have a tool, another extra tool, LDN, which is very affordable and very safe. And the side effects, um, none that I am aware of are life-threatening, at least none that has been reported. Um, so I think that I would urge both readers and practitioners to pay attention and the diligent in reading articles, new articles coming out.

There are more trials that are coming out and to be curious about LDN, and that just don't accept it as, Oh, it just, it's good for treating Hashimoto's disease. It's good for ms, and the next bet would be it's good for autoimmune diseases, but why? Why is it good for treating autoimmune diseases, once you have the idea that this is an anti glial cell modulator, then it opens up a big field, especially within regards to using it as in pain.

For inflammation, inflammation, which causes nerve pain, inflammation. That, and it's very interesting cause nerve pain is how I got started with acupuncture because, um, as you may know, the listeners may know, the tools that we have for nerve pain, um, are very limited. We can use Gabapentin. We can use another medication, in the main Lyrica.  But either you respond to it or don't respond to it. If you respond to it, you're very lucky, but if you don't respond to it, then you have to really suffer. And suffer means that a lot of people say neuropathy. How do you describe it? In the beginning, you would get the tingling, numbness, but as it progresses you, you get burning.

Not just any kind of burning, but really cold burning. And then if it advances even more. You will get like a crushing kind of pain and people can't sleep with this. And the, one of the best ways to make people dysfunctional unfunctional is taking their sleep out of the way. They can't get quality sleep, and then all of a sudden you have a big problem.

So I think that that's what all for me to LDN is doing for complex patients, is that. It's really helping me to push it out there. And then now I'm beginning to combine with treatments. So patients who are weak and they are fatigued, and because a lot of patients who have this condition to reach me takes years, sometimes decades, because they don't have, there's a lack of doctors who are willing to think and solve problems because more of us are more comfortable with protocols.

And so if you have that kind of practice all of us, and understand the mechanism, all of a sudden LDN is amazing, then you can use, if the patient is really weak, then you can target LDN to blockade the conventional way, which is the blockading of the endorphins. But it now, you know you're doing that. Then, the application can be different.

You may. You may be more, um, realize that when equilibration happens, you have to push it a little bit and, and march it out, which is a bit different than, um, the steady-state or the equilibrium that you want to bring about for glial cell. Um, modulation.

Linda Elsegood: Wow. I mean, it would be really interesting if you could just see into the future to see if in say, 20 years time where LDN would be, 

John Kim:  Yeah. I think that one of the danger is that all of us are really happy about more research, more things happening. One of the concerns I have is what happens; one of the pharmaceutical companies find a way to patent it. Cause every time I look at all ideas I had about LDN, someone's patenting it. Someone's patenting it. And as of now, I think there are, um, medications that combine, um, anti-anxiety medication and LDN at 7.5 milligrams. And they use that for weight loss. So if you were to create that combination, you can't, at least in the US because Um, intellectual property. So one, I think that the use of LDN, um, I think is at a tipping point for reaching the conventional, because I hear it from other doctors I hear from and when my fellow wants to use it, um, there is an acknowledgement, even though they say we don't like it. But if they say, yeah, there are some preliminary data, and this is very different than when I first was introduced to LDN, where the evidence was really nonclinical data, but more animal data.

So I think that it's really come a long way. I think it's accelerating. We're seeing a large number of studies coming out of ... Uh, I think in one of the Scandinavian countries, all VA has a bigger study. In, um, formally called RSD or complex regional pain syndrome. So I think we're, we're, we see some things that I think that you know, you and your listeners have done an outstanding job and it's, it's accelerating.

The only thing that I'm concerned about is public may lose access to it, the affordable access to it as, as a pharmaceutical company. And the, for those of you who do not know, um, Dr Bernard Bihari, um, was a pioneer in the field of, uh, low dose naltrexone and he, his title is called normalizing immune system function.

And that's so amazing. He didn't know about glial cells, didn't know about, but that's what he called it. And that's what I think he was right on. And. There's a concept in Chinese medicine and herbal medicine we call adaptogen. adaptogen means is to, something is too high, lowers it is too low it highers it.

So on the example of that, they like to use ginseng, but in the world of botanical medicine, I don't think I've seen as good adaptogen as LDN for normalizing immune system function. 

Linda Elsegood: I'm going to have to stop you there, John. We have run out of time, but we will definitely have you back again.

John Kim: Thank you. 

Linda Elsegood: This show is sponsored by Mark drugs who specialize in the custom compounding of medications, assuring that the client gets the proper prescriptions for their unique needs and conditions. They work with practitioners integrating knowledge and treatment of experts to create comprehensive health plans, visit https://www.markdrugs.com/ or call Roselle (630) 529-3400 or Deerfield (847) 419-9898.

Linda Elsegood: Any questions or comments you may have, please email us at Contact@ldnresearchtrust.org. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciated your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well.

Dr Darin Ingels Lyme Disease Interview (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.

Linda Elsegood: Today. I'm joined by Darin Ingles from California, and we have had Darin on the show before. Thanks for joining us today, Darin. 

Dr Darin Ingels: Thank you for having me. 

Linda Elsegood: Now you did a presentation for us for the LDN 2017 conference on Lyme disease. Could you tell us about your new book called The Lyme Solution?

Dr Darin Ingels: Sure. Well, you know, I had Lyme disease myself back in 2002. So I had the, uh, uh, I guess, uh, the experience of being a Lyme patient as much as a Lyme doctor. And, uh, the book was really kind of written out of my own experience of what I went through, uh, dealing with Lyme disease. And you know, I went down the typical path that most people do, use antibiotics and they helped me temporarily.

But, uh, it just so happened, I got infected three weeks before I opened my own practice. And when I opened, I was, you know, the doctor or the bookkeeper or the receptionist doing everything and working, you know, very long days. And after about eight months, I started to get symptoms again. And when I went back on antibiotics, it didn't help.

And I changed antibiotics, and it didn't help. And I went through a cycle about eight or nine months of changing antibiotic protocols and really got worse. So I was fortunate to have a handful of patients in my practice that had seen a doctor in New York City named Dr Zhang. He's a doctor from China, a medical doctor who works as an acupuncturist, and he developed a line of Chinese herbal formulas.

So I went to see him, and he started treating me. And really in about three or four weeks after starting the herbs, I was about 80-85% better. So I had a pretty significant turnaround just by, you know, going on herbs. So it was really kind of my realization that, you know, for myself, and certainly, for a lot of other people that, you know, antibiotics have their place, but they also have their limitations. And, uh, I kinda had to go back to my naturopathic roots and, you know, go back to, you know, herbs and diet and lifestyle. So what, after applying what I did to myself too, you know, thousands of other patients, I found that there was kind of a path that people could take to really, you know, try and overcome Lyme.

So, you know, that's really what prompted me to write the book. 

Linda Elsegood: Hmm. And do you start your book by describing testing because so many different tests will come back negative? 

Dr Darin Ingels: Yeah. Well, you know, the testing has always been terrible. It's never been good. And I was a microbiologist before I was a doctor, actually used to do this test for a living.

So I have a lot of experience with it. And in really 40 years of research, we've really never changed. The criteria of this test and I don't think what a lot of people realize, is that this test was never ever designed to be diagnostic. It was really designed to monitor people that had known Lyme disease.

And you know, at least in the US if you go to the CDC website, the Centre for Disease Control, um, they tell you that Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis. And I think that's, that's. Pretty well known around the world. Yet so many doctors put stock into the testing as being really the definitive way that you diagnose somebody with Lyme disease.

And unfortunately, it's just not true. It really is based on your signs, your symptoms, particularly if you happen to live in an area, part of the world that's endemic with Lyme. And you've kind of ruled out everything else, you know, they call Lyme the great imitator, the great mimic. It looks like a lot of other things.

So you have to go through and rule out other possibilities. But you know, when we see that people have a positive test, um, you know, false positives are actually quite unusual and false negatives are extremely common. So a positive test gives you a pretty good idea that you've probably had exposure and a false negative or a negative test doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility.

And I mean, I guess on the heels of that, you know, the good news is, is that we are having new labs coming out that are testing in different ways. You know, the gold standard for years is really just then this two-tiered antibody test. And you know when the antibody test is really just measuring your immune response to exposure.

So at best all the test really tells you is you've been exposed, you know, whether you have Lyme disease or not. Really comes down to whether you ever actually expressed any of the symptoms. You know, because theoretically, you could have gotten bit by a tick that carries Lyme, your immune system did what you wanted it to do.

You never got Lyme disease, but you'll show evidence in your blood that you had exposure. Uh, so that's why you always have to take consideration, the symptoms you experience in conjunction with the test. And you know, you put two and two together. But like I said, now the good news is we do have some new labs coming out, that are starting to look at cytokine activity, which is not measuring antibodies. There's the fact. There's a lab in Germany called Armin Labs, uh, that does great testing for cytokine activity. And then there's a new lab that just came out in the US where they look at a common sequence to all species of Borrelia.

You know, the test that's been out there only really looked at Borrelia burgdorferi, which was the first strain of line that we discovered, we now know that there are 300 strains of Borrelia worldwide, and yet the test only looks at one of them. So we now have a lab that's starting to look at a sequence that's common to all Borrelia.

So I think, you know, these kinds of labs as they develop, will continue to increase our, uh, our likelihood of picking up Lyme in people.  

Linda Elsegood: And you were saying about looking at the symptoms and how Lyme can mimic other conditions. So if you had the symptoms of MS and chronic fatigue syndrome. How would you try and rule out that it wasn't MS or chronic fatigue, that it was Lyme?

Dr Darin Ingels: Well, you know, I think those two examples, particular, you know, it could be both. You know, I think a lot of these diagnoses out there are really vague. I mean, even if it's MS or chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia, you know, these are just sort of descriptive diagnoses without really an understanding of why.

And if you ask your doctor, why do I have chronic fatigue, why do I have fibromyalgia. More often than not, you're going to get kind of a blank stare. And I think, you know, Lyme can be a trigger for MS I mean, that's what happened to me. My Lyme turned into MS. And you know, if you talk to a radiologist, they'll tell you that the lessons you see on the brain with Lyme are identical to the lesions you see in MS.

Um, so, you know, I think a lot of these diagnoses that tend to be kind of you know, vague or really without a specific understanding of, you know, what the underlying causes, you know, Lyme and some of these co-infections particularly can be a trigger. And what's really interesting is if you go into the medical research, you'll find there's a tremendous amount of information about microbes as a whole being catalyst or triggers for autoimmune diseases.

So it's not really, you know, fringe medicine anymore that, you know, different microbes, you know, bacteria and viruses, uh, can cause a lot of these, you know, chronic illnesses. And I think it's something that most doctors really just aren't trained to look for. But again, there are literally thousands and thousands of articles out there showing how, you know, ms is a great example.

We know that Lyme and ms have an association. We know the Epstein BARR right. And ms have an association, and we know that chronic fatigue has been associated with numerous viruses and other bacteria and so forth. So, you know, I think it's just the process of trying to go through and identify, you know, what these potential underlying microbes might be, um, that is.

You are potentially triggering that reaction. Because if you know what the microbe is, you know, there may be a way, whether it's an antibiotic and herbs, you know, some of the way to try and help deal with the infection. And if that really is the trigger, once you deal with the infection, often we find that the symptoms get a lot better.

Linda Elsegood: And what about the different trains of thought that, um, Lyme disease can be sexually transmitted? What's your take on that one? 

Dr Darin Ingels: Yeah. You know, it's, it's been a controversial topic. And what's really interesting, you know, when I wrote the book, of course, I was doing a lot of research, and I was really surprised that in, in the research, they have not shown that it is sexually transmitted.

And I think a lot of Lyme experts, and in fact, I was at the ILADS meeting last October, and one of the gentlemen stood up and basically felt, uh, that it is very hard, uh, to acquire Lyme sexually transmitted, you know, through sexual transmission. You know, the way you get Lyme is through a tick bite.

And of course, it's specifically in the saliva, the tick, you know, that's the route of entry. Uh, so through sexual contact, you know, the research says, no, I don't think it's impossible. Um, I mean, I certainly have had partners where one developed Lyme and then months, years later, their partner developed Lyme.

Now, is it because it's through sexual transmission or is it just because they live in the same environment and that person just happened to get their own exposure? Um, you know, I think it's a bit of a grey area because it's a really a kind of bloodborne pathogen, I think, unless there's probably the transmission of blood, it might be fairly hard.

Um, however, there was an article that literally just came out last week that did find a Borrelia in the genital secretions of both men and women. Um, so I think that's some of the newer evidence that it's possible. Um, but just because it's in the secretion doesn't mean that it can still, you know, penetrate the mucus membrane and create an infection the way that we think of it that you would normally get through a tick bite.

So, you know, I guess the truth is we really don't know. Uh, I, my advice, uh, to patients with Lyme is to be cautious, uh, with, uh, sexual activity and use, uh, you know, protective measures. But, um, I think, uh, the. We're still trying to figure out, you know, what that possibility really is.  

Linda Elsegood: And what do you cover in the chapters in your book?

Dr Darin Ingels: So the book is really designed to be a patient guide. Uh, of course, it's very appropriate for practitioners who really just want to learn more about Lyme and a sort of a natural way to approach it. But I really break it down into five steps to sort of simplify the plan. And the first step is really about addressing the gut.

You know, we know that the gut, uh, accounts for up to 80% of our immune function. So if the gut is not functioning well, often, you know, the immune system doesn't function well in many Lyme patients I work with, you know, have a history of some sort of gastrointestinal problems even before they got Lyme.

And whether it was chronic constipation or diarrhoea or gas or bloating, you know, there's some evidence that they really weren't assimilating their food well. And that things weren't functioning quite the way it should. So I really talk about, you know, different nutrients you can use, uh, to help, you know, rebuild the gut, repair the gut if it's been damaged.

Certainly for anyone who's already been on antibiotics that might've wiped out a lot of their normal gut flora, or perhaps they've been on other medication that's damaged the gut, such as, you know, perhaps chemotherapy if they've been through cancer treatment. So it's really outlined and designed to give you a step-by-step, uh.

Plan on, you know, different nutrients you can use to really help, you know, restore the gut back to its normal balance. And then the second part of the plan is really about diet. So I've tried various diets on myself and certainly with my line patients, and there's paleo, and there's keto, and there's, you know, specific carbohydrate.

You know, there's just numerous diets out there that get purported to help you know, everything. And what I really found is a, what's called an alkaline diet seems to really work best for Lyme patients. And an alkaline diet is really kind of a. Uh, perhaps a hybrid of paleo in that, you know, it really kind of reduces a lot of your carbohydrate intake.

But what it really boils down to is, I think as to what we probably ate when we really were true hunters and gatherers, where it really is a plant-based diet. So you're really eating mostly vegetables. And we try and limit animal protein to less than 20% of your total dietary intake for the week. And then there are certain foods that we know are just very acid-forming in the body.

It doesn't, things like, you know, dairy products and junk food, processed foods, which of course are a huge problem here in the US and a. And even things like coffee, you know what we know is. From a chemical standpoint, you know, the more acidic your body becomes, the more prone it is to inflammation. So at the end of the day, with the diets really about is, is reducing inflammation in your body.

And inflammation could be in your joints, and it could be in your brain, it could be in your gut. It really applies everywhere. So I give you a two week, you know, plan on, you know, this is what you should be eating. And then I've actually partnered with a nutritionist, uh, at. Prep, dish.com and, uh, we put together a one month a meal plan, uh, for people who really want to follow this diet through.

And it just gives you some great recipes and easy to follow guidelines on how to prepare your food. I mean, a lot of times when people have Lyme, they're just tired and exhausted. And the last thing they really want to do is spend hours and hours slaving over a stove. So we really wanted to try and simplify it and just make it easy for people to really start.

Start eating well. Uh, the third step of the plan is about treating infection. And as I mentioned, you know, I went through both antibiotics and herbs, and I found that herbs actually work really well. So I go through a series of herbal protocols. I've used myself personally, and I've also used in my clinical practice, I find give me the best clinical results. And what I like about herbs too is that not only are they trying to go after the bug, but they're also dealing with all the other things that Lyme does to the body. So it's helping reduce inflammation and improve circulation and improve blood flow. And, uh. Help support your immune system. So it really deals with a lot of the things that Lyme does. And you know, one of my contentions in the book is that you know, Lyme initially is an infection, but at some point it really kind of becomes an autoimmune disease. And so if we really start thinking about Lyme more like an autoimmune problem than just a straight-up infection. I think, you know, we get better clinical results. So I really, you know, walk you through step by step, you know, here are the herbs to take, here's the amount to take. And you know, these herbs, at least in the US are readily available online, so it's easy for people to get access to it. 

The fourth part of the plan is really about the environment. And we know that a lot of people with any kind of chronic illness tend to have a high body burden of different, you know, chemicals and toxins, which all just makes it hard for your cells to work well for your immune system to work well. So it's really about reducing your exposure at home to different chemicals that you might be using. You know. Yeah. Window cleaner and tile cleaner and bathroom cleaner. You know, most of these chemicals tend to be fairly toxic and have a lot of things that don't do anything good for your body. And I really focus a lot in this chapter about mould, you know, certainly here in the US and then I'm guessing in the U K as well. You know, you've got a lot of mould issues, and mould is the one thing I find mimics Lyme probably more than anything else. And if you write down all the symptoms of mould toxicity and all of the symptoms of Lyme disease. There's quite a bit of overlap. So when we've had someone who's been on Lyme treatment, and they haven't been responding very well, you know, one of the first things that always pops in my head is mould.

And do we need to go through that process of trying to identify if they've got mould exposure in their environment, but mould is definitely a big part of that environmental evaluation? And that's part of the plan is really about lifestyle. And I find so many people, you know, again, when they're chronically sick, and certainly, with chronic Lyme, you know, a lot of lifestyle things really change.

You know, I mean, I used to be a very physically active person, and when I had Lyme, I was exhausted. And the thought of doing anything physical was just—a lot. So, uh, but you know, moving your body is really very important for your physical health, for your mental health. And I think no matter what your physical state is, there's something you can do, uh, just to get you moving a little bit.

And it could be as simple as stretching. It could be yoga. It could be Tai Chi. It could be Qigong. It could be swimming. You know, there's a lot of low impact activities that people can do to really try and get their body moving. And again, that's what helps move the blood, which ultimately moves the lymph. And the lymph is where a lot of these organisms like to hang out. So it really is kind of a way of cleaning out the toxic stuff in your body. Bringing in oxygen, bringing in fresh nutrients, and I think it's also just good for people's mental health. 

Um, I also talk about the importance of sleep. You know, I find a lot of people after they've been exposed to Lyme, really don't sleep very well, and sleep is, you know, when your bodies actually get the chance to restore and repair itself. So people miss out on that. Deep restorative sleep. It's just really hard to get well. So I talk about specific nutrients that people can use to encourage deeper sleep, better sleep. 

And then the last part of that is really about stress management. You know, again, when you're chronically sick, it's stressful for you. It's stressful for your family, your loved ones. And I think there are so many people out there with Lyme that have a good support network, but you know, I know how it was for myself. At some point, people kind of get tired of hearing about not feeling well, and. They ask you how you do on a day, and you're polite, and you say, great, and deep down you don't feel great at all. Um, but you know, nobody really wants to hear your truth. So I think it's important that people have that place, that space, that they can really share how they do feel and whether it's a therapist, whether it's a Lyme support group, uh, to have some avenue that's not your immediate family or friends that you can kind of unload on. And, and. It's okay that, you know, you feel that way. Um, again, I, I think that's an important part of our mental wellbeing. And you know, our, our brains and our bodies are very well connected. So if we're only taking care of our physical body and not our mental body, uh, I think that becomes an obstacle to really getting well.

So I just encourage people, and I give you some ideas in the book about, you know, different places that you can reach out and help, you know, kind of complete your support network. So, you know, that's really the essence of the book. And then I have one chapter in there is really on therapies that need to be physician-guided. And so, of course, I talk about low dose naltrexone and other therapies that need to be done during done under the auspice of a physician  

Linda Elsegood: When you get somebody who comes to you, and we have many members that are so sick that. They are disappointed. Some of them that they wake up the next morning because they have had enough, you know, they feel so ill, they can't see any way out of feeling better.

Now, if they read the book, where do they start? Where? What? Because when you're that sick to do anything is a struggle. As you were saying about following a, a diet for four weeks, what. There are many steps that you talked about there in the book. Where is the first point of starting to try and feel better to be able to do all the things that you suggest?

Dr Darin Ingels: Yeah. I think, you know, kind of what the first step in the book is, there's no kind of coming back to gut health. You know, your gut health, because that's your intestines. It's your stomach, and it's your liver. Your liver is what does the heavy lifting for detoxification. And look, I've had patients that have gone through every therapy under the sun, and nothing really works for them.

And sometimes they start, you know, dealing with their gut or dealing with some sort of detox protocol. And then, you know, that's the thing that really starts to get them feeling better. So, you know, for someone who's really kind of down in the dumps and discouraged and just trying to find something to give a little, uh, a shred of hope, uh, I think, you know, this is something, again, that's not expensive that.

Anybody can do it again, no matter what your state is, is, you know, start, you know, working on building your gut health. Start working on, you know, detoxifying your body. And I mean, I've got patients that, you know, do home enemas. I've got patients that, you know, jump into a sauna if they have access. I've got people that, you know, there are various ways that aren't, uh, you know, hard on the pocketbook that is doable, that you can at least start that, that process.

So I think that's a good place for people to start. 

Linda Elsegood: Cause many people, as you were saying with Lyme, have tried so many different therapies and it's financially broken them because, you know, they spend a lot of money and many times don't feel any better than when they started. So to have a plan that you can follow through, um.

And if you can get your gut health sorted out, so you feel stronger and more able to do other things, you know, has got to be the way. But if somebody came to you who was in a really bad way, and they asked you the question, it may as well be how long is a piece of string, but how long would it be before you know, I start to feel better.

And by following all these steps, could I put my Lyme disease into remission? What would you say? 

Dr Darin Ingels: Well, my expectation, when people start following the plan, so to speak, you know, my expectation is that you would see improvement in the first six to eight weeks. Now to get to a point where you really felt, you know, completely a hundred per cent; well, I mean, realistically, I mean, it could be a year or longer.

I mean, for me it was, you know, after I got off antibiotics, it was a little over two years before I really felt like I got my life back. But again, when I started on the herbs, you know, I felt an improvement, you know, a significant improvement in the first month. So I think just having that inkling that you know, you're feeling better.

You know, you know you're on the right track, you know, then it's easier to kind of go forward and do some of these other things. You know, where I see a lot of stuff fail. I think there's a lot of therapies out there that are very expensive, at least here in the US that is really designed to target just killing the bug.

And I think if that's the only thing that therapy's designed to do, you're going to get very limited improvement. And you know, I've seen, you know, patients that have flown over to Germany for hyperthermia treatment. I've had a lot of people here who do ozone therapy and other oxidative therapies like hyperbaric oxygen, uh, IV, you know, ultraviolet stuff.

And again, I mean, these therapies all have their place, but you know, they're really all designed in some way to kind of, you know, kill the bug. And I don't know that they necessarily address. I know a lot of these other issues that Lyme has created, and again, they tend to be very expensive, and you have to have a provider, you know, apply these therapies.

So, you know, I wanted to know the book to be really something anybody can do at home, no matter where you are in the world, pretty much. At least if you have access to the internet and you can get some of these things. But a lot of these things are things that you can really do on your own. And I mean, for a lot of people, uh, you know, it makes a huge difference.

And again, this was my journey. This is what kind of turned the corner for me. You know, I really never did any high tech anything. Um. Yeah. It really wasn't accessible to where I wasn't in the States at the time either. But, uh, I think, you know, you have to look at the the the risk-benefit of any therapy and the cost of course, and you know, what is going to give you the biggest bang for your buck.

And, um, I'm sure if you talk to every Lyme doctor out there, they'll probably have a different opinion on what that is. But again, I, I. I think the book that I've written is really a great way for people who are trying to be budget-conscious, uh, to be able to sort through the therapies. Uh, I try to talk about, you know, the price, uh, about what these therapies are.

So people have a pretty good idea about whether it's something they can do or not. But again, most of the stuff in there is pretty affordable. 

Linda Elsegood: Could I just ask you about the long-term use of antibiotics? I know you were saying, you mentioned about how it affects your gut. Um, I'm just thinking myself, when I was on a long-term antibiotic, I got, um, thrush in my mouth and I could not clear it up.

I had it for about a couple of months. It was terrible. Absolutely 

Dr Darin Ingels: Awful. Yeah. The long-term antibiotics, well, you know, even short term antibiotics are going to have a damaging effect on your gut microbes. I mean, that's just the nature of the beast. You can't kill the bad guys without killing the good guys.

So there's always going to be collateral damage when you're using antibiotics. And then we know from the research and in rats anyway, you know, when you give a rat a single dose of antibiotic, I mean, that's not what, even one day, that's one day. Dose, it takes six months for the rat, got to repopulate back to where it was prior to the antibiotic use.

So I can only imagine what happens in humans when we've been on antibiotics for, you know, weeks, months, and I mean, I've even had one patient who was on continuous antibiotics for 12 years. You know, in addition to, you know, wiping out your normal gut flora. And of course, again, we've had a, just a ton of research coming out about the importance of your microbiome and how it modulates not just your immune system, but your weight and your mood.

And you know, all these other aspects of our health are really tied into our gut microbes. The other thing about the long-term antibiotics that people really don't know about and they should, is that it's very damaging to your mitochondria. And we know that Lyme itself damages your mitochondria. And for people who don't know, mitochondria are the part of your cell that literally create energy.

So part of the reason, you know, you're sorry darn tired. When you get these chronic infections, and to a certain degree, it's that damaging effect to these mitochondria. Well, again, we know that when you're on antibiotics long-term, that compounds the problem, makes it worse. So, you know, I'm certainly not opposed to using antibiotics.

Again, I think they have their place, and certainly, with acute Lyme disease, I think they can be very effective. But you know, if you're in the state of chronic Lyme and you've been on antibiotics for months to years, and you're not feeling any better, I guess, you know, my feeling is, at what point do you draw a line in the sand and say, no, this really isn't the best path for me, and I need to find something different.

I knew that in the effort to try and kill the Lyme, you're also damaging other really important aspects of your own body. So. Uh, you know, it makes it even more confusing that you know, we don't even know if you ever really get rid of Lyme. You know, we can't measure Lyme easily in the body. And I think there's been some pretty compelling evidence that we, I've never actually done get rid of Lyme.

You know, once you get it, it's kind of part of you, but I sort of equate it to like, you know, when you get a Chickenpox when you're five years old, you can get shingles when you're 55 years old, and it's the same virus that stays in your body. You know, the difference is your immune system. Something happens that you know, it tanks, and then that virus becomes opportunistic.

I think, again, you know, we need to think about Lyme disease and how it affects your terrain. And if we can correct your terrain, correct your immune system, you know, it should be able to keep it at bay, uh, and not cause problems. You know, why is it there? Some people who get Lyme and you know, they'd get over it, and they're fine.

And other people, you know, it goes on for years. Um, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons, but I think a big part of that is certainly what was going on in the body prior to getting Lyme and then what happened thereafter. But again, I think the more we make our body more toxic, more acidic, uh, all of these things just kind of add up, and it just makes it harder to get well.

And of course, the antibiotics are also very acid-forming in the body. So again, from a chemical standpoint, uh, it's not. It's not doing the kind of things in the body we really want. So, you know, people really need to weigh that risk-benefit when they're considering doing long-term antibiotics. And you know, I've seen, you know, I, I heard from people online and said, Oh gosh, look, I was on antibiotics and saved my life.

Great. You know, I, I think anything that works, you know, again, there are some people who do really very well on it, and it changes their life. And that's wonderful. But again, I think, you know, I'm, I'm focusing more on the people who've been down that path, that haven't responded well or gotten worse, and they need, you know, other solutions.

Linda Elsegood: Great. Well, we've come to the end of the show and if people would like to go to https://dariningelsnd.com he has a lovely website there with all the information about the book he's practised. There's a blog, a store, events, absolutely everything, and you can even order the book online. So it's been amazing having you with us today and thank you so much for sharing your experience for this.

Dr Darin Ingels: Great. Thank you, Linda.

Any questions or comments you may have, please email us at Contact@ldnresearchtrust.org.  I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciated your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well.

Frank Sievert, MD Audio (LDN, low dose naltrexone) from LDN Research Trust on Vimeo.