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Linda Elsegood: Today, my guest is pharmacist Kim Hansen. She's from the Town and Country Compounding Pharmacy in New Jersey. Thank you for joining us today. Kim.
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Linda Elsegood: So when did you first decide you wanted to become a pharmacist? Was it something you'd always wanted to do?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Absolutely. I was working in a small independent pharmacy, a traditional retail pharmacy when I was in high school. And on occasion the pharmacist there would say, Hey, Kim, go mix these two creams. Or Hey Kim, go mix these two liquids. I was hooked. I knew that's exactly what I wanted to do. And from that point on I headed for pharmacy school and that was my path. I knew it immediately. That's what I wanted to do.
Linda Elsegood: So where did you study?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Rutgers college of pharmacy in New Jersey.
Linda Elsegood: So you haven't moved far?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I've travelled far, but I haven't moved far.
Linda Elsegood: So once you started compounding, what were the main medications you were doing at that time?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Back in the day, it was usually combining a couple of creams together. That was before we had a lot of the manufactured products that we have now. A lot of times compounds start off that way, then they end up being manufactured items later. I used to have to make a topical minoxidil solution. I used to have to make up progesterone capsules way back in the day. Suppositories for progesterone. This was 20 some years ago. So it was before I knew of LDN. I was doing compounding before that. Mostly progesterone and topical dermatological items that were not commercially available.
Linda Elsegood: How did you hear about LDN?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I think it was at a compounding seminar is the first time I'd ever heard of it. It was being discussed for autoimmune issues. I started seeing prescriptions for it about seven or eight years ago. Usually, it was just capsules,usually, it was the three different dose levels that we know differently now. It started gaining traction more for me within the last three years. But I did see it back seven or eight years ago.
Linda Elsegood: And what forms do you compound LDN into?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Right now we do capsules and oral suspensions. Most often it's the capsules that patients are happy with. We also do a cream for patients with autism, and occasionally it's added to pain gels as well.
Linda Elsegood: What is the filler of choice for people?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Generally speaking, patients are happy with acidophilus. I do have patients that don't want that. And then we usually use micro crystal and cellulose, but if they have a specific filler question or need, we're happy to accommodate that.
Linda Elsegood: And what strengths do you do now in the capsules?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I think our lowest is a hundred microgram capsule because that patient prefers that to be in a capsule form versus the liquid form, anywhere up to 10 milligrams and anything in between.
Linda Elsegood: And the patient population, what would you say the top conditions that LDN is treated for from your pharmacy?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Hashimoto's, pain and depression.
Linda Elsegood: So talk us through those three, Kim, the experience that you've seen from those patients.
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I'll start with Hashimoto's. We do notice patients are getting to a dose that is appropriate for them and are feeling better. They also require less thyroid hormone.
If someone is on thyroid hormone and start LDN, that should probably be monitored more closely than before you started the LDN, because you'll find that as the inflammation reduces, the thyroid level changes and you may need to change your dose. Usually, it's a reduction in the thyroid dose when it comes to the pain medication using it for that.
I have patients who have had their lives changed. They were in a tremendous amount of pain before, and they were put on other pain pills. Any medications usually were just adding to their pill burden, but not really giving them relief or quality of life that they were looking for. I have patients who weren't able to do any of their activities of daily life and now are doing things that they haven't done in 20 years. To me, that makes things tremendously rewarding to know we can be a part of that success story. I should also mention when discussing pain with patients, I have patients who have become tolerant to opioids. So we also find that LDN is a way to help reduce the opioid burden and help people get off of those and still maintain their pain relief. I view those two things together like pain and sometimes patients are looking to get off the opioids for relief of their pain. So it actually does both.
The other I touched on was depression. I have patients who are using an increasing schedule of LDN and also weaning off usually their SSRI or antidepressant drug. And they're finding if they wean very slowly off the antidepressant and titrate upwards very slowly with the LDN, they're able to get off of the antidepressant and still maintain a non-depressed state. They're happy to be off the medication and be able to use LDN, which we know works in a different way and usually has a better overall effect than the actual medication worked for them.
Linda Elsegood: Ultra-low-dose naltrexone helps combat the opioid crisis. Could you talk us through how, when people come to your pharmacy, whether it's been addicted to prescription drugs for many years, how LDN plays a part in getting them off the opioids, but still controlling the pain?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I won't get into a specific schedule because it is so dependent on each patient. I will say that we usually start patients on the microdose or the low dose, ultra-low-dose naltrexone, usually in a suspension form, and they'll be on whatever their dose is usually for about a month. And then after they're stabilized with that, the pain management expert will slowly increase the dose of their ultra-low-dose naltrexone and also decrease their opioid dose usually by about 10%. Again I don't want to give schedules and hard limits because every patient is so different in their ability to reduce. It's very varied as far as that goes, but I have many patients who have been on rather strong doses of opioids that have been on that for years, have been able to slowly titrate up on the naltrexone and slowly wean down on the opioid and have had success and be pain-free and opioid-free. That's huge to have that happen. We had one hospice nurse (certainly hospice nurses are very well versed in pain and pain origins and pain protocols) who herself had her own pain issue. We walked her through this process of slowly starting the ultra-low-dose naltrexone and scaling that up over time and reducing the dose of the opioid over time. Now she’s opioid-free and as pain-free. And it definitely helped her increase her quality of life and also to be able to do the things that she couldn't do before.
So that's a huge story. I mean, someone who is on opioids, to be opioid-free is huge.
Linda Elsegood: Definitely. For people listening out there who are in a lot of pain, because I'm told nearly daily that there is somebody who is in terrible pain, but they were already on very high doses of an opioid that doesn't seem to be working, you know? Of course, the problem with opioids is your body gets used to them, and you have to keep increasing the dose to get the effects you were having. So anybody who has chronic pain for whatever reason, or fibromyalgia or having an autoimmune disease that has a pain component to it, how would they go about.
finding a doctor who would prescribe LDN and one that would understand about the ultra-low dose, who would be able to help them transition from the opioids to the ultra-low dose?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Two awesome ways to find that out. One is LDN research trust. There are lists of physicians and practitioners on there that are knowledgeable in what we're talking about here. You can also ask your local compounding pharmacist because we are a treasure trove to know who is actually prescribing it in order to be able to send patients.
It works both ways. The prescriber sends the order to us as they know that we'll do a quality compounded product. I can then refer patients back to other practitioners because I know that they're knowledgeable in this and then they've attended our seminars and that we can work together with them in order to get the best outcome for the patients. So it works both ways.
Linda Elsegood: I was quite surprised when Dr Sam was telling me how quick the process is because I thought it would be a long, slow process. But he was talking just a few weeks, which was, wow. People that had been on opioids for many years, to, find relief like that, it just amazes me that something.so small and so simple seems like tickling the pain with a feather in those ultra-low doses rather than using a really big mallet, which is the opioids, for it to work. It just is mind-blowing, isn't it? And of course, the price, LDN is not expensive, and many people have to pay for it themselves. And it's not a price out of the reach of most people. We still have people who do not have money, they're sick, they're not able to work. And if it's a choice between food or LDN, that's a problem. But we're looking at around $30 a month, depending on where you have it compounded. It's an affordable drug, isn't it?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Absolutely. We try to maintain that because we do understand that patients are in pain and you don't want them to have to choose between therapy and their food or their bills or whatever that is. We want patients to get the relief that they need.
We've kept what we're doing affordable so that we can make sure that it's available to as many patients as possible. Usually, you'll find whatever pharmacy you use, if you're going to be starting a titration and working your way upwards, usually that pharmacy will put together a kit.
So you've got maybe two different doses of a capsule in there so that you can gradually increase to the dose that you are working towards. And then once you arrive at the dose that's working for you, then that pharmacy can make that dose into one pill so that it becomes more economical if that makes sense.
Linda Elsegood: Yeah. I had a lady email me this morning, I think she had Sjogren's syndrome, and she was doing really well. She'd worked up to three milligrams. It did really well. She's now on 4.5 and she's not sleeping, not feeling as well. And I was trying to explain that with LDN it's not, the higher the dose, the better the benefit. It's what suits you best. And if at three milligrams, she felt really good, why would she need to go to 4.5? It's not working. It's making her feel ill, so she should go back to where she was in a good place. There is so much misinformation out there that people seem to think that this magic 4.5 is the goal that everybody should be on. Have you noticed that with your patients?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Absolutely. I've had patients tell me the same story that you're describing here. Everybody has in their mind that more is better and that the goal is to get to a certain number because that's where the best results are.I am always cautious about making sure I explain to patients, hey, we're dispensing a kit to you. This initial kit is usually good for 49 days or seven weeks, but if at some point halfway through this kit, let one of us know that you're experiencing relief or you're not experiencing anything at all. If you are at a dose where it seems to be optimized, I don't want you to have to continue to go up because the goal isn't to make it more, the goal is to get relief, and if you're getting relief at a lower dose, then stay there because it's very easy to overshoot that and you'll lose the benefit. So, in this case, absolutely more is not better.
Linda Elsegood: Do you have any stories of people who are on a very low dose that have stuck to that's the right dose for them?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Yes, a patient with diabetic neuropathy who was using the kit and they had gotten to a higher dose, and they weren't feeling so good on that. He backed off the dose he had gotten to, I think it was three milligrams. He went up to the next step, said I don't feel as good as I did on the dose before that. Then we know where you should be. And we had him go back to the dose he had come from, he's much happier there, and he's able to function.
Whereas he was in pain and uncomfortable before.
Linda Elsegood: What I was getting at there was, I know quite a few people that are on 1.5 or two, which I mean is low for low dose even, isn't it? People tend to think anything under three is no good, but even that is too high for some people. Not everybody gets there. As you were saying with the man with his diabetic neuropathy, you don't have to panic. Or thinking that you know you're not taking the right dose. I know some people think that it's not a therapeutic dose if it's under three, but that is a myth, isn't it?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I would agree with that. Every patient is different and how they respond to it. So even if you have identical twins. A member of your trust that lectured about this, their one set of neighbours. They completely matched as people go, and the same age, same condition, same everything else. If you go down the line and, person A got results more quickly than person B. So person B was discouraged thinking that they weren't going to find the same relief that person A got. Having to start over with patient B, and go a little bit more slowly, titration was the key for her. So whereas a lot of times you'll see dosage regimens that, every week we're going to increase by whatever the increment is. Sometimes patients will need to go even more slowly than that and maybe increasing every two weeks or maybe every month, whatever that takes. And again, not everyone is the same. So if you get to a dose rate, like, I didn't feel anything the whole way. Sometimes you can, wash it out, start over, and go more slowly and find results there. It's just so dependent on each patient and just because you haven't gotten the answer that you want and you've gone up to 4.5 sometimes the answer isn't going up a higher dose. Maybe it's starting over and going up at a slower pace.
Linda Elsegood: Some people feel quite discouraged starting again, but by doing it very, very low and moving up very, very slowly the fallout rate isn't as high, and the success rate goes up. You know, 20% of people didn't have the relief they were looking for, but that 20% has reduced, hasn't it? We are getting a better success rate now, understanding there are people who do need to look at LDN differently.
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Completely agree. Back in the 80s when we were doing 1.5 and three and 4.5, that was such a rigid structure that you probably lost a lot of patients who didn't have success and or probably had side effects that they weren't pleased with. Changing our thinking with the results we have now, knowing that going more slowly and doing slower increases or lower increases is actually beneficial overall. Yes. Patients who have tried with not finding their success before; it doesn't mean you won't have success trying it in a different fashion.
Linda Elsegood: Exactly. And then there's the other school of thought where you have to take it at night. You know, it's not gonna work for you if you take it in the morning. We now know that's not true. Is that what your experience has been?
Kim Hansen: I would say that's true.I think yes, at the beginning of the push was, Oh, you have to do it at night because your body does repair at night but you know, here's no reason why you can't do that during the day. And there are also reasons why you would want to do something twice a day and do split dosing. Some disease states and some patients do better when they're split dose.I find that is the case with using it for the antidepressant purposes, sometimes a split dose is better for that patient versus the whole dose at one time of day regardless of morning or evening. Again, individualized treatment, and you have to listen to the patient and listen to what they're saying to you so that you can work on a treatment plan together.
Linda Elsegood: And you were saying about the topical cream for children with autism. Do you have many children with autism?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: We're in New Jersey, unfortunately, we have one of the highest percentages of autism in children. So yes, I do see it, not as often as I once did, but I do see it, and usually, they're not amenable to swallowing pills. So usually the parent is putting on cream at night when they go to sleep, and they don't even know what's being applied.
Even if they take a capsule and they put it into a smoothie or whatnot, kids are wise to that because they're probably on a whole bunch of stuff and they're eyeing up every meal that comes to them, making sure nothing's been hit, so they're pretty wise to it. You'll find that the cream is helpful in those cases and yes, it does work.
Linda Elsegood: And have you come across children with juvenile arthritis or pediatric Crohn’s who are taking LDN?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I have heard of it, but not in my experience here.
Linda Elsegood: And no children or adults with asthma allergies.
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I had heard of it of course but no experience of that directly here.
Linda Elsegood: It's amazing, isn't it? Initially, going back,15 and a half years when I started the trust, it was mainly people with MS. Then it went to Crohn's, then fibromyalgia, it was just exploding. But we didn't know too much at that point what it did for chronic pain that wasn't autoimmune. We knew it helped with cancers. We didn't know about all the mental health issues and of course, it's used in fertility clinics as well, and for women's health, for painful periods. There's a name for that, PCOS, polycystic ovaries. Dr Phil Boyle uses it in his clinic to help women get pregnant. They take it during pregnancy, during breastfeeding, have really happy, contented babies, he says, and they have less chance of needing IV antibiotics for chest infections and things, which is apparently quite common in babies when they're firstborn. And he said, as a rule of thumb those babies are far more content when they come back for checkups, than babies that haven't been exposed to LDN, which I think is quite interesting, isn't it?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I agree completely with that. When I have a patient that's here, and I'm showing them the list of disease states or conditions that this is helpful for. And of course, their question is always, how could one thing be good for all of these? And I love that question because that means that you're thinking, okay. And you're sceptical, and that's fine, but then when you explain that a lot of these systems are all tied together and how pain and depression are linked by the same pathways as is your immune system, as are a lot of different things, inflammation, all tied together.
When you can explain and have them understand how the different systems in your body interplay, that's when the light bulb goes off because traditionally here in the United States you go to the foot doctor for your foot problem, you go to the GI doctor for your stomach problem, you go to the neurologist for the neurology problem. And really they're not all communicating. When you look at the thread of symptoms that a patient is dealing with it's like you're missing the overall theme of inflammation or whatever that is. And LDN is helpful for that. So, therefore, it's helpful for all of those conditions. It's not because things are tied together. That's why it's helping you. I hope that made sense.
Linda Elsegood: It does. Now there are other things you can do to help inflammation as well as taking LDN. What do you suggest patients do?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: For inflammation? Well, it's very important. I always remind patients that their diet is everything. If you look at the glycaemic index, it's scaled anywhere between zero and a hundred and sugar is at the top as being a hundred you would like to keep your dietary choices below a 50 because they are less likely to cause an insulin spike or have a glycaemic effect on your sugar. So if you keep your food items below a 50 more often than above 50 you're reducing the fire in your system. So the whole point of taking naltrexone is to reduce the fire in your body, as explained before. Everything is connected. You can't expect the pill to do all of the work either. Reducing inflammation that you're adding to the system is also part of it.
You can't walk around eating the standard American diet of high carb and high sugar and poor nutritional value and not have inflammation if you're going to continue to feed the inflammation fire, of course, you're asking the LDN or the naltrexone to help with your symptoms.
Sometimes just reducing a lot of the inflammation that way is helpful and it certainly helps to augment what the LDN is doing. I also find that high-quality C-- products, the full spectrum ones are also helpful at reducing inflammation. Using the LDN in combination with the C--, you get the beneficial additive effects. I have patients who have needed to use that combination, and they've gotten their quality of life back.
Linda Elsegood: it's funny what you were saying about fruits. My mother was in the hospital, and she was a type two diabetic, but her kidneys were in a very poor state, and she had to have insulin. She had quite a bit of insulin three or four times a day. When she was in the hospital, she asked for a banana. And they bought her a banana. And she said, Oh no, I, I don't like eating bananas a little green and underripe. I like them when the skin is going brown, and it's mottled and inside is all nice and squidgy. And they said, no, you can't have one like that because it's going to affect your insulin because it's very, very high in sugar when it's that ripe. That is correct. The nurse was trying to say very nicely, but it is higher in sugar, and I think my mother was thinking, a banana is a banana. The nurse was trying to say, you can have a banana but you mustn't have it when it's overripe. Because it's too high in sugar.
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: When I tried to talk to patients about that, of course, nobody ever wants to hear they have to make changes and give up their banana or wherever it is they're eating. Everybody likes what they eat, but when you explain it and say, Hey, these are inflammatory, what you're doing is adding to your inflammatory burden. I'm not saying completely avoid the bananas, but if you know that you had had a banana that day cause you had to have it, maybe look at the bottom of the list to make sure that maybe we're balancing that out and making a choice that has less of a glycemic load than maybe the banana or something else. That's not to say that you should never have banana again, but maybe making choices to balance out your day versus choosing everything above 50 if you reduce the amount. Because they are both 50 and take below 50 reducing the amount of inflammation in your system, which is good for all sorts of things, Alzheimer's, heart disease, cancer risk, all of these things driven by inflammation. And why would you not want to reduce those risks?
Linda Elsegood: It's altering the way you look at food. Instead of being a diet which people don't stick to. It has to be a lifestyle change, doesn't it? So it becomes a habit. You know you have good habits instead of bad habits.
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: Agreed. If you call it a diet, people assume that is a restriction on their lifestyle. If it is health maintenance and it's on a different connotation or inflammation reduction. If you look at it that way, rather than, oh, I'm on a diet. Well, you know what? I'm trying to reduce the inflammation in my body. You'll find that you'll get fewer headaches if you get rid of sugar and carbs, which of course includes bread. There are healthier slices of bread that you can eat, more of the whole grains here. I was amazed by this too. Everybody's under the misconception that, Oh well I, you know, I'll avoid the white bread cause I know that's not good for me and I'll just eat the wheat bread. It's no better. It really isn't any better. It's like a point or two different on this scale. What you need to do is either do it like a whole grain bread or switch to something that's grain-free, like Ezekiel bread, which has a low-glycemic index. If you're trying to make that effort, there are smarter choices that you can make.
So you don't feel like you're on a diet where you're restricted and being punished. There are ways to explain things.. You just have to be careful about continuing to pile inflammatory product after inflammatory product. It leads to all of the other health problems that I mentioned before.
We're all leading stressful lives, and probably you're not exercising as you should, and not resting as you should, and you're just adding more and more burden to your system to be able to detoxify. Helping your body do its best is certainly a better management tool all around.
Linda Elsegood: Well we've run out of time Kim, can you believe that's 30 minutes gone?
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I can't believe you wanted to listen to me. Wow. I'm so happy.
Linda Elsegood: Awesome. Thank you so much for having joined us. I really appreciate it.
Pharmacist Kim Hansen: I'm so grateful to have been asked, and it's my pleasure. If you have any questions, certainly please give me a call and I'm happy to share anything I know.
Linda Elsegood: Thank you.
At Town and Country Compounding Pharmacy in Ridgewood, New Jersey, owner, pharmacist, John and his team are passionate about low dose naltrexone. They have compounded LDN for over 15 years. And they're committed to compounding high-quality medications and serving as an educational resource for patients and practitioners alike. Visit https://tccompound.com/ or call (201) 447-2020 with any questions or comments you may have. Please email me, Linda, linda@ldnrt.org. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciated your company. Until next time, stay safe and keep well.